When you hear "consensus", no one is saying that each scientist would write down an identical essay on the subject. Rather it means broad-scale agreement, and a common understanding.
When I combine that with prominent climatologists like Judith Curry changing her position when presented with observation-based evidence that countered her climate predictions[1], it leaves me deeply skeptical of any and all alarmists.
I haven't taken time yet to read the IPCC's latest report, but I've heard that it has the same lack of consensus between the computer models (full of alarmist assumptions in how they were programmed) and observation-based studies.
I firmly believed we must follow observational data above computer simulations... Its just better science.
[1] https://reason.com/2023/08/09/this-scientist-used-to-spread-...
When we arrange the science to fit the narrative we deny science in whole and corrupt the scientific method. And unfortunately, when funding is tied to donors or programs this is exactly what we incentivize.
Science is only as good as the freedom of the scientists to ask unencumbered questions.
precisely because she is a contrarian, i.e. it is not the case that she represents dissent from a prominent researcher. It is to be expected that she is prominent given that it is hard to find many scientists who agree with her thinking. Politically, she is one of the few people available to provide credibility to climate-denialism (even if "credible" does not apply within her own field).
I really want to engage with you on this, because there is an alarming trend in the alt-media to try and depict scientific communities as a cabal of politically minded sell-outs. But the reality is pretty far from this. It's not perfect; peer review needs to be more accessible, journals should be open-accessm, etc., but to depict it as a cult is deeply misrepresentative.
The source you referred to (https://reason.com/2023/08/09/this-scientist-used-to-spread-...) has all the hallmarks of this. It writes as though "establishment science" (which I would be interested in having the authors define) is a person you can speak to, and receive a single opinion. I've seen a number of these kind of "free speech" publications pop up recently, but from what I can see, they are really just contrarian outlets; they seem more interested in being "other" than actually pursuing a particular theme with any kind of rigour.
Part of the problem is of course science communication. The media is problematic in the UK (at least) because of its poor treatment of complex issues like Brexit, climate change, economics, etc). In general, the media tend to fail in communicating how science is conducted, what risk looks like, and how uncertainty is described. You can see this in cinema; science is portrayed as esoteric experts who defy the establishment in some good-wins-out triumph (see Oppenheimer). But, that's really, that's just good entertainment.
We know that computer models aren't perfect. No-one would take you seriously if you gave a modelling result without a description of the uncertainty and how it was derived. But they're also the best thing that we have besides "wait and see", where we walk without agency into whatever future awaits us.
Observational data can disagree with models without invalidating their conclusions; it depends upon the questions that you ask. A specific example; the nucleus is often modelled as a bunch of protons and neutrons moving around independently. We can answer some really interesting questions about why some atoms have very long half-lives using this model. But, if you want to know why a particular nucleus shows vibrational behaviour, the shell model can't help you. Despite this, the shell model is considered one of the most successful theories in physics.
> politics: social relations involving intrigue to gain authority or power
You need politics when working multiple people together. But in particular in scientific communities, you need to be able to superseede political, or institutional, ideas. This is what the original post talks about.
The core scientific constructs is stuff like falsification, occam's razor, etc.
The "mistake" seems to be a juxtaposition of science and the scientific community.
good science has objective criteria and does not require political justification.
I've never heard of those so-called objective criteria. There are some procedures that could be described objectively, but they are garbage in, garbage out. The tricky part is in the details, in the assumptions and interpretations you make. Get them subtly wrong, and the sacred rituals of cargo cult science will simply lead you astray.
i dont entirely know where the garbage in, garbage out comes from? it sounds like a data scientist who thinks there is no more to science than analysing the data they are provided.
if garbage goes in, then you designed your experiment poorly. which is not good science.
convincing is not science, but politics.
Many of those answers will likely be based on your interpretation of the scientific consensus.
luckily, not everybody does that,otherwise we would not have superseded the Newtonian era.
which is what the main post is about: we need to break out of the community and consent.
Anyways, this reenforces the idea that we should distinguish between science and scientific communities.
The elephant in the room, Gravity, would like to have a discussion with you :)
And there is always the possibility of a different answer. But there's also the vast majority of evidence (with some political motivation) vs a striking lack of evidence (also with some political motivation). I'm going to err on the side of -- most people who dedicate their life to study something are honest about their study of that something.
2. All science that does not internally generate revenues must rely on a patron, be that a person, corporation, or government. Funds from these orgs is limited, so scientists must justify why they should get money. This introduces a huge bug in science as a truth cremation mechanism because seeking truth may not be in a patron’s best interest. As the sums of money get larger, this effect becomes more intense.
love that typo
Actually Exxon just bought the $5B Denbury CO2 pipeline. While I am on the fence about CO2 actually being a problem, we need to recognize that companies that may be viewed as opposed to something may be part of the solution.
If someone works out a super-efficient algael biofuel that is commercially viable at a national scale, I fully expect the oil multinationals will move to growing it everywhere.
> In addition, we are building a portfolio of properties for carbon sequestration, in close proximity to our CO2 pipelines
There isn't enough information available to understand if this is permanent sequestration, or a longterm reserve to supply their oil uses.
However, moving CO2 from plants to oilfields does seem to be better than just venting it into the atmosphere.
The cost of the CO2 injection system is thus offset by the profits from the oil recovered; if this were to go to zero then the corporation would abandon it as an unprofitable exercise.
https://corporate.exxonmobil.com/who-we-are/technology-and-c...
they're 'confusing' you for the parent poster of the comment chain you directly replied to in the discussion that you inserted yourself into, something understandable from anyone who spends time on sites that have parent/child discussion chains.
the confusion is solely yours alone, but for any other new users to the site you're taking up the role of continuing the discussion by commenting on reply chains inside that discussion, so having a reply to your comment that mistakenly mentions "your" previous post can be immediately understood in this context as the parents post and not as a misdirected attack that needs to be personally identified before continuing casual discussion.
do you need any more context to respond with honest intentions?
FCOL, I didn't even make a point/take a side, I genuinely want to know what the difference is between "shutdown a conversation" and "dismiss opposing argument without consideration".
That post was the first post I made on this story, and I'm supposed to accept that prior to posting that I was shutting down discussion?
> it's palpable to the rest of us to see how quick the discussion jumps to feigned confusion, a lack of charity to understand what others are saying and to immediate dishonesty
With all respect to you, that's rich.
It seems like your "simple observation" is referring to the false dichotomy of stating that there are only money from Exxon, Phillip Morris and Pfizer (and the likes?) as an alternative to governmental money?
There is a plethora of way to finance any projects besides either be financed by the government or large corporations – and luckily much research is funded in other ways.
I am sure one can easily think up more ways to figure financing of (scientific) projects.
When financing come from an independent fond, the board of that fond according to the purpose.
Either you need to need to be indipendently wealthy or follow the desires of who or whatever gave the funds to the foundation.
Do you believe this money doesn't carry any obligations?
> Science is never conclusive. There’s always the possibility of a different answer. The history of science illustrates that clearly.
What do you mean, can you give some examples? Which scientific conclusions might change? Do you mean that the earth might be flat after all? Or that your doctor not washing her hands before operating on you might be good for your health? Is non-zero ‘possibility’ being used as a justification to ignore the actual probability of a dissenting idea, even when almost all scientists agree? A small possibility is exactly that: unlikely, no?
The article lays out many cases where "consensus" was, indeed, a political construct and not really a scientific consensus at all.
Why do you think hand-washing or the shape of the earth are “extreme” examples of scientific consensus? I think they’re both great here because they both had huge political debates, and scientific consensus eventually prevailed. There are many many more examples of basic scientific consensus that nobody argues and that demonstrate the claims of comment I replied to are false. Are you asking for more examples? BTW hand-washing was the opening example in the article. Doesn’t that make it absolutely fair game in this context?
On the other hand, lab-leak was NOT a consensus. It was a Party line. A real consensus doesn't emerge in just a few months. There isn't time for contrary evidence and arguments to emerge.
1. It's not true
2. It's true, but it's not important
3. It's true, and it's important, but I already knew it.
(A variant of #3 is "it's old news")
Even without a technical solution like this, it is not terribly difficult to draw lines around 75%++ of comments and produce decent theories about what motivates each individual to say the (particularly incorrect) things they say...and it is even easier to predict what their responses will be if their claims are challenged (the algorithm/workflow seems amazingly simple, there are perhaps ~20 distinct categories of responses that cover ~90% of scenarios).
Interestingly: humans are able to easily see this phenomenon clearly when they are dealing with children, but if the same suggestion is made regarding adults, opinions tend to change, and amplify in strength of belief (particularly among relatively intelligent people in my experience).
Note: I am pulling these numbers out of my ass, as humans do! But the underlying idea is fascinating to me, and I will make a bold prediction: humanity will be grappling with these ideas within 20 years, likely less.....I think it is unavoidable now that AI is in the wild.
For instance lot of contemporary issues can be tracked back to the effects of population and the infrastructure and logistics necessary to maintain it. Suddenly economists, ecologists, evolutionary biologists, demographers, et cetera... There's suddenly manifold complications once you stop looking at it in a vacuum and under a microscope, and thus consensus ceases. Importantly, we must consider the resolution at which policy is informed by inputs from these various intersecting fields and what should be given precedence and also important is the practicality and the means of application. Most importantly of all, I think, is that autonomy be granted to individuals and communities to conduct the experiments of life as this forwards the goal of truthseeking rather plainly. And with that the flow of ideas and experience.
What disinfectant product to use does have a minor effect on the margins of the outcomes, sure, and there is still some side-discussion about that, but there is no discussion about whether to wash hands. If you’re going to challenge the idea that there’s consensus, you must present and examine the magnitudes of the effects of each decision. I do not buy the argument that a sliver of a marginal effect challenges the primary outcome - and I especially don’t buy the argument that because you imagine there “could be” some cases, then consensus isn’t clear enough. One person in a million dying of soap poisoning has no real bearing on whether doctors should wash their hands, and doesn’t change or challenge the scientific consensus that doctors should wash hands.
What's a "scientific dissident" to a "scientist"? Because a scientist may be a dissident, but a dissident is not necessarily a scientist.
> And as soon as one hears "scientific consensus" you know you're listening to a political statement not a scientific one.
This is false.
Let's take the recent news about that new room temperature superconductor. "Scientific consensus" means validity and reproducibility. Achieving results that validate the primary hypothesis is not a "political statement".
> When the answer is "final", science is no longer the ongoing motivation.
You have a warped view of what science is. History hasn't proved that science is "not conclusive", but that it is continuously evolving, adding layers to previously simpler answers, e.g. the newtonian concept of gravity hasn't been discarded by contemporary theories, just extended.
It drives me mad when people talks about science like a series of revolutions that break with everything taken for granted until that point. This is not what happens. If anything, new science supersedes old science.
What you describe is what happens when science collides with quackery. And yes, that applies to climate change deniers.
Sure, but not in any sinister way. Politicians have to make decisions somehow. If everyone who's studied the problem says essentially the same thing, that's a good hint as to the right decision.
I get irrationally angry when people say things like "believe the science". No! They entire point of the scientific method is I don't have to believe anything. I can replicate and verify the results for myself.
Which is valid stage of knowledge progress. But it does not mean no area should ever be considered mostly settled.
You can't tell anything until it is in scientific consensus stage, precisely because a single study rarely means that much.
To that end, the problem was never ivermectin anyway. The problem was people buying horse dewormer from vet shops and self medicating.
You guys take “hey, maybe don’t self medicate with medication meant for horses cause we don’t even know if this works, let alone what sorts of dosage or anything is safe and adequate” as a personal attack, and then go off the rails over it.
My Uncle had a patient dying yelling he didn't have Covid whose family doctor's only "treatment" was to prescribe them ivermectin.
It's not illegal, but I don't want that doctor.
>Big pharma is bad, and we should not be pushing drugs that were rushed through approvals
This is your position when talking about vaccines, despite the fact that vaccines actually work, and the “rushed” actually just means it skipped months of wait times.
>big pharma is good, and we should be needlessly pushing drugs that have not been through efficacy studies just cause
This is your stance on ivermectin
You’re taking two different stances on the same position depending on what your political hero said.
Then you’re posting lies, and when called out on the lies, post more lies.
You say that physicians were “being bullied”. But they weren’t. They were being told not to push unproven drugs. That’s not “being bullied”.
Physicians were rightfully “being censored” when stating unsubstantiated claimed of efficacy, as the studies don’t support them.
Even today, different studies on ivermectin alone produce different results. Yeah. There are studies showing a positive benefit mild cases. But there are also studies showing no difference, and more studies showing zero preventative benefit for becoming serious.
That is to say that even today, we don’t have conclusive evidence that ivermectin works. So doctors who declare that it does are lying, and absolutely should have those statement “cancelled”.
It doesn’t have anything towards the effect of ivermectin on Covid.
Astronomy is not only a science, it's the science that kicked off the scientific revolution in the 1600s.
You don't need to be able to experiment to do science, you just need to be able to observe. Theories are tested against future observations. "Natural experiments" where something new happens are useful for this. An example in climate science was what happened after the Mt. Pinatubo eruption.
It certainly does.
- The increase in global average temperatures is correlated to water vapor - The increase in global average temperatures is correlated to methane - The increase in global average temperatures is correlated to CO2
Another example: - "there has been an increase in global average temperature"
These are all falsifiable assertions and have been given due attention. I would be really skeptical of a perspective that claims climate change makes no falsifiable claims.
> Without the ability to experiment, all you are doing is fitting some gigantic models to some historical data, and we all know how bad this can go.
Fitting a gigantic model to historical data is a form of experimentation. A hypothesis is in some ways the act of creating a model to fit data and then to use that model as a tool for predictions. Fitting a gigantic model to historical data and seeing how it goes is exactly an experiment!