Hacker News Reader

Comment by arnvald | Hacker News Reader

At this points it looks like Germany is almost allergic to innovation.

Their government introduces more bureaucracy for companies, discouraging investments there. Berlin had a chance to take #1 spot as the tech capital of Europe post-Brexit, instead we rarely see any new unicorns coming from there.

Auto industry is another example - Volkswagen and Volvo groups are #4 and #5 when it comes to battery-only electric cars, and they're behind Tesla, BYD and SAIC (both Chinese). They're not innovators, they're still behind and I don't know if they'll catch up.

As an EU citizen I feel more and more negative about the economic future here, with UK having left and the biggest countries (Germany, France, Italy, Spain) struggling to stay relevant, especially in tech industry where AI can soon turn cause a major power shift.

View on HN

> At this points it looks like Germany is almost allergic to innovation.

It is ultimately the German culture that is to blame. Germans are way too conservative and risk-averse. And pessimistic to boot. You can say all you want about bureaucracy and all that ease-of-doing-business gibberish, but ultimately it is simply that Germans do not believe they can actually innovate and are too scared to take the risk. And this is true across the whole of society, from the plumbers to the board members of Siemens and Bosch.

I could write a whole book about the problems with German culture. This is really only one aspect of a much bigger issue.

I suppose a large component of this is that it's an ageing society, with a median age of 47 - second only to Japan, excluding microstates.

Maybe it's just a very German thing to not have too many children - if it weren't for immigration, the country would have peaked in population in the 70s.

Germany also has a housing crisis at the moment, at least in the major metro areas where the jobs are.

Tough to increase native population when you don't build enough housing because you have CO2 caps, and you also turned the existing housing stock in a speculative casino table designed to enrich the few asset owners and the banks, and hoping unrestricted immigration that will suppress wages and prop up housing prices enough to get economic "growth".

Basically, Germany is just burning the candle on both ends, economically speaking.

I guess germany's ambition has been wholly crushed following ww2. Certainly an interesting effect. All the more surprising that they managed to aspire to so much when it comes to the EU.

West Germany had a very dynamic, bustling era in the decades after WW2. The foundation established there made them the world's top export economy pound-for-pound and one of the elite manufacturing economies. If they're lacking for ambition nationally-culturally, that would be a more recent event (post Euro).

I would speculate that there is cultural identity and dynamism value in having your own independent currency, just as there is in having your own language.

Germany's economy for example would be more potent if they weren't on the Euro. Artificially cheap exports is like a sugar high that is ultimately unhealthy for them, they have ridden that horse too far (relied on it to too great of an extent).

> As an EU citizen I feel more and more negative about the economic future here

Yea, it's rather tragic. It's especially visible in tech sector. There is basically no success large player/story in EU (Spotify is more licensing and Skype was moved out) and instead of fixing the environment, EU just adds regulations and fines giants from US.

Let's regulate metaverse, let's regulate AI.... Large players from overseas will pay lawyers and small ones will avoid EU and local ones are stifled.

Tech ... nothing. Automotive ... will be killed by Chinese EVs (good luck with tarifs when most profits of domestic OEM are from Chine)... Manufacturing... Most of it is gone, but some are still hanging on (Siemens et al). I guess there is a fasion/brand and turism.

>Automotive ... will be killed by Chinese EVs (good luck with tarifs when most profits of domestic OEM are from Chine)...

In Germany, there are still people who think that German ICEs are our competitive advantage...

>In Germany, there are still people who think that German ICEs are our competitive advantage...

If you tell a lie enough times, you start believing it yourself.

This works for both common meanings of ICE, engines and the train type.

It doesn't really matter in the end.

The Human race is basically screwed and civilization will collapse in a few decades anyway. Most of your children's lives will be spent either starving, freezing, drowning, burning or fighting.

But for one brief, glorious moment, we created a lot of value for shareholders.

Insert "not with that attitude" meme.

> At this points it looks like Germany is almost allergic to innovation.

> Their government introduces more bureaucracy for companies, discouraging investments there.

I made the mistake of trying to build a startup in Germany. Not only is the overall total level of taxation absolutely killing us, not to mention the absolute lack of R&D support that is available almost everywhere else in the EU, the local tax authority just handed me an assessment for 2024 and pls pay up in 6 weeks time.

I’m writing them a “no, thank you” note because I’m shutting up shop. We are self funded, were about to reach MVP and look for some seed funding, and the German taxation essentially killed us at short notice.

There are two types of businesses that can work in Germany: small businesses and massive enterprises. Everyone else is forced to stay in their place.

That is at odds with the observation that the German Mittelstand arguably carries the country’s economy in large parts. There are many world leaders there, hiding in niche markets. For how that lasts remains to be seen.

The German Mittelstand model is indeed successful for those organisations that fit that model. Very often, many of the properties that make the Mittelstand work are not that successful for startups.

My personal story is just anecdata, but the German (and European, in general) startup stories are relatively few and far between, so I know I am part of a wider pattern.

It is clear that the EU Regulates (and taxes!) whilst the USA innovates. Once I dig myself out of this taxation hole I’m trying again in the USA.

For Europe's sake I hope the same thing doesn't happen to Germany that happened to Detroit, as the world moved on and it wasn't able to innovate fast enough to keep pace.

It was trivial to start a B.V. in the Netherlands. Took two days. I hear germany is far, far behind, and has a fondness for faxes.

I wanted germany to make more sense but NL seems better on every metric. Except elevation.

And Germany wants what, 25k€ as an LLC starting capital? Absolutely nuts.

Not sure but from what I've read it's a pain and takes several weeks. Inferior cycling infrastructure too. Though I still love visiting the place. Certainly beats NL when it comes to mountains!

Volvo/Polestar is also under Chinese management/ownership.

I wonder how much age and general ossification are playing a factor.

Germany is essentially the oldest nation in the world at the median (very close to or beyond Japan's figure). The median closing in on being 50 years old, is going to tend to crimp the output of the labor base vs the population scale (active workers vs retired ratio). The only offset to that is either extreme productivity increases (have to make your remaining workers far more productive), or immigration.

I rarely hear anything about the kind of high-skill immigration efforts that, for example, Canada is known to pursue the past few decades. Germany should be a tech juggernaut.

Volvo is Sweden company owned by Chinese Geely Group. How is it related to German bureaucracy?

You haven't realized yet the EU is basically a temporal version of the USSR? Watch closely how every power mechanism slowly gets roped into the hands of Brussels.

That explains why the UK is such a success story. They managed to avoid the tight grip of Brussels. The inflation rate in the UK is significantly lower than in the EU due to the foresight of competent politicians like Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson.

The UK Govt managed to squander every opportunity that was given to them, and I say this as a tory/leave voter.

The EU used to be the scapegoat, but that's no longer possible. What is the new scapegoat the UK people are being fed with these days?

COVID use to be after Brexit, now it's Russian war.

they can both be moving in a bad direction you know?

Reply on news.ycombinator.com