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Comment by gravypod | Hacker News Reader

In my opinion this is: 1) extremely likely to happen and 2) extremely avoidable. Right now there's no new blood replacing existing hams. The type of person who is into RF is also likely to be tech savvy these days. There are cool things you can do in ham with computers (ax.25, psk) but I've seen a lot of "that's boring come learn code to talk to people on field day" push back in most clubs.

It is very sad. I have a feeling a new wave of hackers would flood radio if the community pushed for some spectrum to be community dedicated to digital comms.

Outreach would be much easier.

I've actually seen hams go on a >20 minute rant about how digital is ruining ham radio.

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Of course it's boring to people that have had smart devices since the day they were born. These people can talk to anyone any where on the planet at any time of the day. HAM allowed people to talk to others across the horizon since pre-WW times. That's like saying playing with 2 tin cans and a string is boring. Duh!

>I've actually seen hams go on a >20 minute rant about how digital is ruining ham radio.

Digital ruined a lot of things. Analog is/was just so much more open and ripe for hacking. Part of the advantage of digital was this security. However, going digital allowed us to do so much more, so it's a migration that could not be stopped.

The only time HAMs are paid any attention are in times of disaster. Nobody will notice the loss of HAMs until the next major disaster near them, and then everyone will look around and ask "what happened to all the HAM guys?"

> The only time HAMs are paid any attention are in times of disaster. Nobody will notice the loss of HAMs until the next major disaster near them, and then everyone will look around and ask "what happened to all the HAM guys?"

It's true that the HAM clubs tend to put a cultural emphasis on emergency communications. But the primary value add is the community with its various memoranda and training/standardized way of handling emergency communications. The radio skill-set and equipment is more of a red herring, tbh.

Even being tuned into the amateur radio community and living through several regional natural disasters that knocked out cell phone coverage, I've never actually seen HAM radio operators turn out to be useful in emergencies.

I'm glad for the robustness provided by the HAM community, and I think allocating spectrum is a small price to pay for a set of volunteers who serve as yet another layer of "backup infrastructure". It's valuable to have that robustness.

But tbh in an actual emergency or natural disaster I'd MUCH rather have my inReach mini than my hand-held. The HAM emergency communications narrative is vastly over-stated (and, honestly, self-important in a way that's off-putting to pretty much all non-HAMs).

Ham radio is an avenue to get kids interested in electronics.

The spectrum is worth it for that alone.

There are many more young hams and much more experimentation and digital interests than many realize. They just aren't ARRL members, don't go to club meetings, etc. They are active on discord. But there's plenty of new blood and hacker-types - they just don't do the contests and nets and other 'classic' ham radio stuff.

The curmudgeons are a minority, but a very vocal one.

I really want to be interested in amateur radio but it doesn’t seem useful for anything. Since encrypted traffic is forbidden it seems useless for any personal project where I care about confidentiality or integrity. That mostly seems to relegate it to “talk to other people who are far away” and I can use the Internet to do that already.

Confidentiality isn't really part of ham radio. You must be licensed and maintain a semi-public call sign. Part of the fun is learning the physics and engineering of RF and antennas. Makings contacts thousands of miles away usually takes skill and know-how beyond just jumping online and talking with random people. There are a lot of factors such as understanding wave propagation in relation to the earth and ionosphere. It's satisfying to, say, take your little 5W HF radio and mobile antenna into a remote area and make contacts with other operators. There are also lots of other cool aspects such as having privileges to create higher-power mesh networks, etc. It's a technical hobby and not for everyone, but rewarding.

You're accurately describing the status quo, but I think the parent's point is that a lot more people, me included, would be interested in defending these frequency allocations as a public good if they were more practically usable, and practically usable directly implies encryption. It's an awful lot of primo bandwidth for a bit of hobbyist DXing.

I think the problem comes down to the HAM rules having been formulated pre-Internet, where the distinction between amateur and commercial activity was a lot more obvious: noncommercial ~= useless, commercial ~= useful. The advent of the Internet demonstrated the existence of a whole new category: noncommercial ~= useful.

Today we've got all kinds of noncommercial but highly useful RF applications, e.g. Meshtastic, that are stuck in the relatively limited ISM bands (yes, I'm aware of HAM mode, but recall usefulness → encryption). Just using the Internet isn't a replacement for these projects, as they're intended to be useful offgrid or during times of centralized Internet disruption. IMO it's a crying shame that stuff like this, the bleeding edge of non-commercial usefulness in RF, is lower priority than ragchewing. Besides, it's not as if all the technical aspects go away under looser rules: propagation behavior etc etc are just as important, if not moreso, than they ever were.

This doesn't mean just hand it over to the corps; there's a third way. Some chunks of current HAM spectrum should be converted to ISM. That doesn't mean a total free-for-all; duty cycle and EIRP limits apply and can be scaled appropriately to the frequency's propagation characteristics. The degree of freedom in usage in ISM bands drives innovation in protocol design to make better use of available bandwidth, as has happened with 802.11, so congestion/commercial use is actually a good thing.

Checksums, signatures, HMACs, &c are allowed over amateur radio; so integrity checks are allowed. You're not allowed to "obscure the meaning of the message", but that doesn't preclude integrity checks.

Maybe not useful for you, but ham radio is objectively useful for myriad reasons.

Also, very specifically, 47 CFR § 97.113(4) states "messages encoded for the purpose of obscuring their meaning" are prohibited (with one exception in § 97.211(B)). The intent is to prevent illicit commercialization and promote self-policing of amateur spectrum, but it does not truly preclude using encryption, cryptography, authentication, and encodings so long as the "meaning" of the message isn't "obscured."

Also, AFAIK there are zero cases (i.e. FCC Notices of Apparent Liability) on intentional use of encodings for the purposes of obscuring the meaning of messages on amateur spectrum, and a very small number of cases of hams complaining about illicit transmissions, most of which were a result of an error or spurious emissions. I think most hams read the law and stray far away from brushing up against it by avoiding even the discussion of encryption carte blanche, but I think it's unexplored territory that would help to advance the state of the art, so long as we abide by common-sense practices to avoid *obscuring the meaning*, e.g. clear-text identification, public/published encryption protocols/keys, etc.

But if your intent is to basically use encrypted ham radios as an off-grid alternative to the internet and/or ISM/licensed wireless/cell networks for private or commercial use...then just use the internet and/or ISM/licensed wireless/cell networks.

It's also not far-fetched to amend the regulations. Debbie Lesko (R-AZ) is writing a bill to change the antiquated symbol rate limit to a bandwidth limit, opening up new modes, data rates, and capabilities for hams and emergency communicators on HF, VHF, and UHF spectrum. "Obscuring the meaning of the message" is very vague, and it certainly needs to be clarified and updated with the best interests of wireless experimentation at heart.

Pay attention to some of the projects being funded by the ARDC - Amateur Radio Digital Communications. They’re on the lookout for people, especially younger people like school kids and college amateur radio clubs, doing new and interesting things with RF, which is really what the amateur bands were intended for.

https://ardc.net

The thing is, there ARE chunks of spectrum dedicated to digital comms within the amateur radio bands.

Here's a link to the VHF band plan we use here in the UK - obviously I can't speak for other countries: [https://rsgb.services/public/bandplans/19/ ]. It's _littered_ with SSTV, beacon and digital mode allocations (and for clarity, that's a good thing). The digital mode allocations are full of people chatting in text using FT-8 or JS8Call (more in HF than VHF, those, but the principle holds). On the next page, there's an entire 1MHz allocation dedicated to wideband digital data modes.

If you're a licensee, there's plenty of innovation and digital experimentation space available. Sure, a chunk of the traditionalist ham community aren't excited about it, but there's plenty of us who are. And, as ever, you don't need a license to receive...

I'm in Canada.... Telecoms own all spectrum (hyperbolic but not by far with how beholden govs are to corps like Telus and Bell)...

Kinds sucks being the birthplace of telecoms...

https://youthontheair.org

i'm doing my part!

Unfortunately, that's true at quite a few clubs, which are quickly shrinking in size. It probably wouldn't be difficult to stage a coup by having a dozen younger enthusiasts join and vote out the current membership, but it would be cleaner just to start up a separate club dedicated to digital modes. Younger potential members are more likely to congregate on a platform like Discord than join a local meatspace group so it's kind of moot.

My only experience with an amateur radio club:

I studied to take my Technician Class exam, when I finished and passed, I found out I could take my General Class exam right then if I wished. When I took that second exam and failed, the club members looked absolutely delighted. I don't look like them, and their smiles felt like them saying "we knew the freak would fail". It felt incredibly alienating.

Thats a real shame... I've rightfully ignored all of the people who encouraged youth to join the hobby then shunned them for talking about topics that they weren't interested in or experimenting with different modes that they don't like... Ham radio has plenty of fantastic people in it, and like any other large group that tends to have its share of gatekeepers who believe we all should be able to copy morse at 45wpm in our heads.

Shoot for the general again and use one of the online testing groups, simple and no judgement.

HamStudy.org got me through the Technician and General, Anki-style. The website was free, the app was $4 (one-time purchase, includes all three levels, plus a few non-US exams).

The volunteers proctoring all three of my online exams were anywhere from polite to actively cheering me on (before the exam), and all congratulated me when I passed.

> I've actually seen hams go on a >20 minute rant about how digital is ruining ham radio.

Only 20 minutes? That's short for an RF guy rant! I used to work with ~20 mmWave guys. All older dudes, and MAN could they talk. There was one guy who's last name was "Park." We called it "getting Parked" when he would park his ass at your desk and prevent you from getting any work done for 1-2 hours at a time

Legacy two-way radio is plagued by analog. FRS would be vastly more useful to the average person if some digital comms were permitted. People want to be able to text each other in the woods, send coordinates, etc. and there’s no technical reason why a digital FRS gateway (with meshing) couldn’t exist. Obviously the no encryption rule would need to remain so people don’t, for instance, use the whole allocation for more Wi-Fi channels.

> People want to be able to text each other in the woods, send coordinates, etc.

Small amounts of digital have been allowed in FRS for a while. But only one second, every 30 seconds. Creating a mesh within that constraint would be genius.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/95.587

But sending GPS coords and short data bursts standalone or with phone app is a thing. e.g. https://baofengtech.com/new-release-btech-gmrs-pro/

TIL! Thanks for the info.

Most of the RF hacking anymore is being done in ISM band with LORA and the like. The HAM industry is almost entirely catering towards boomers on expensive HF sets chewing the fat. I got my tech license a few years back and the free issue of the ARRL magazine I was sent had two retirees on the cover talking into expensive mics, seated in their lavish radio shacks. Yeah this hobby is not for hackers.

I've been interested in Hamming it up for a while but between frequent moving (making it unreasonable to expect to have enough/keep enough gear) and more importantly, the culture of the remaining Hams themselves I haven't had the opportunity nor will to actually do it.

I'm pretty sure that those few who might get into really do get pushed away by the people who still do it...

"Those youngsters are ruining ham radio for us!"

"Those boomers are ruining ham radio for us!"

It's the ciiiiiircle of life...

The gap between analog and digital modes is big enough that maybe it doesn't make sense for them both to be in the same club. The FCC relies on the clubs for volunteer labor to conduct testing and monitoring rule adherence, both of which the older guys seem to do very well but perhaps licensing should have a base component for understanding the general FCC rules and basic radio theory and then have separate analog and digital endorsements.

> The gap between analog and digital modes is big enough that maybe it doesn't make sense for them both to be in the same club.

This makes absolutely no sense. There's a whole base of physics, experince, antenna design, &c that are shared between analog and digital modes. Truthfully much more is shared than is different -- after all, in the end, digital modes are just another analog mode transmission.

And yet here we are, with the analog gatekeepers happily leading the hobby into oblivion.

See the amateur radio licensing system as a graduated driver’s license where the questions were put together by classic car guys who miss those giant pre-1973 oil embargo American muscle car engines, but is a necessity for running your electric-powered car with sensors and self-driving capabilities you and your tech community are developing out on public roads at speeds high enough to get anywhere, and with enough real traffic to get good feedback.

The best way to influence the content of that exam? Join one of the more progressive VECs (Volunteer Exam Coordinators) as a volunteer examiner. Minimum license level for this is General, but really, Amateur Extra, so you can give all three exams.

Which VECs are progressive? Start with the ones that host online exam sessions, and seem enthusiastic about it. The money is trivial ($15 per exam given, and they have to have three examiners watching one test taker), so they’re in it for the love (and possibly community clout).

VECs, in turn, help the FCC set the question pools for the exams, and those are updated a little bit every four years. They’ve started adding a few questions about digital modes. I personally think they should have more content about safety and regulations, because that’s what really matters for playing nicely with others on the little bit of spectrum we have.

At least where I live, the vast majority of hams you encounter both in person and on the airwaves are grumpy aging boomers who are actively hostile to new people.

Goodbye Amateur Radio, you won't be missed.

Can't wait for you to get older and start shaking your fist at the youngins who hate you for no discernable reason.

One day, your area will suffer a major disaster like earthquake, hurricane, etc that will knock out all of the cell towers and possibly even home internet access as well. We'll see how much you miss the HAMs then

Yep, that's the fetish these guys have. Old grouchy misanthrope in a Tilley hat becomes local hero during an earthquake.

and you sound exactly like the type of person that will be the first one crying to everyone that their wifi isn't working and they're missing some ridiculous TikTok time waste instead of helping out with the situation.

As a long time radio amateur, extra class, licensed since 1995: I don't really like the attitude. There's legitimate concerns about the longevity of the hobby. The average ARRL member is 68 years old. There's also a bigger and bigger disconnect between older operators and (the few) younger operators.

Most of the hobby is not prepared to help with emcomm. And I think you (and a lot of people) overstate how helpful amateur emcomm is. In the past couple decades, local officials have gotten pretty good systems for getting high priority traffic out of the local area (which is what HF was previously for).

Amateur volunteers relaying things in the local area are helpful in keeping disaster logistics running smoothly. Radio skills are not a big part of it, for the most part.

I'm a teacher and passionate about radio. I don't know how to get my students into radio and make it into a good experience for them. They're way too likely to face hostility, racist political rants, etc. So I haven't pushed on it.

I'm a former HAM. And the "grumpy old-man" majority is what really turned me off of it when I was younger. I occasionally still use SDR to listen in to HF/whatever, and it seems like the "old-man" factor has only gotten worse. Last time I listened to the HF SSTV (it would have been in 2021 or 2022) channels I gave up after getting an anti-Hillary meme.

As for emergency preparedness... No. Hams don't really play a role anymore. Satellite texting/Starlink, digital repeaters for agencies, generally available idiot-proof radios are all things that would have to fail. There's a reason that the volunteer SAR team near me just buy off the shelf stuff from Motorola instead of trying to recruit Hams. Even in some sort of failure like that, I would rather have an air band or marine band radio than a Ham radio.

I think you overstate what I had originally argued.

Our local CERT makes big use of amateur emcomm. But it's the non-critical stuff: neighborhood liasions to go out and spot things, or volunteers in a truck to relay supply needs at peripheral stations.

It's a parallel line of communications (with a separate set of humans making a judgment of what's important to escalate), which is useful when administrative and decision-making capacity is constrained. And it has different failure modes, which is nice, too.

Even little things: visible volunteer patrols by amateur operators for fireworks laws violations just helped my city tamp down the normal dozens of fires to only two and hastened the firefighting response.

I was just relaying my experience as a former teenage ham.

As a counterpoint, I once was involved with a backcountry emergency where, at a certain point, it made sense to have a non licensed person on a radio. We actually had the local grump hop on and tie up the frequency chastising them for using the radio. That felt very in line with the ham community.

Sure, Hams can provide utility in an emergency, but Hams also like to overstate just how essential they are in these situations (scroll up for evidence).

Volunteer fire patrols are great and all, but an independent radio network for the volunteers is not exactly required, or providing anything a cell phone can’t

> Volunteer fire patrols are great and all, but an independent radio network for the volunteers is not exactly required, or providing anything a cell phone can’t

Cell phone networks will be down or at capacity when disaster hits.

Public safety networks will mostly be up, but they only have so many officers, etc.

> As a counterpoint, I once was involved with a backcountry emergency where, at a certain point, it made sense to have a non licensed person on a radio. We actually had the local grump hop on and tie up the frequency chastising them for using the radio. That felt very in line with the ham community.

I have said some negative things about the community here, but I haven't seen anything like that. We all pass an exam that makes it clear anyone can use any frequency in an emergency, and we all also should know that we can let unlicensed people under our supervision use our radio in non-emergencies. (With some exceptions).

> but Hams also like to overstate just how essential they are in these situations

That was my original point that you replied to, but your response felt too strong: I believe there is definite utility from emcomm, but it is not essential.

So, I used to work in SAR and we trained annually at a major disaster exercise. Absolutely none of the exercises included working with hams.

Ham EMCOM is mostly useful for relaying "Bill Jones says he's okay"-type traffic but otherwise it's just a LARP.

> So, I used to work in SAR

I don't think amateur is very useful for most SAR-- it's odd that you guys keep bringing it up. You guys can provision for typical needs; amateur is a benefit because of its elasticity.

> but otherwise it's just a LARP.

Don't be a dick. I think CERTs are important, and amateur radio is the lifeblood of CERT in many areas.

Doctrine here in Santa Clara County is that it's for things like:

- getting initial information and assessments from earthquakes in the first 20 minutes (a couple hundred people trained popping on nets saying modified Mercalli numbers and reporting the most urgent needs for assistance near them).

- coordinating distribution of relief supplies ("we need 100 more flats of water bottles at site GR2")

- medium priority traffic between hospitals when other communications systems fail (coordinating transfers, etc)

- handling all the low priority traffic from large festivals and events to keep primary communications systems clear (so a town's EMS dispatch doesn't need to talk about boo-boos, and so that event organizers don't need to try and talk through police dispatch)

- additional eyes and ears for police and fire

- locating anyone (inadvertently or deliberately) disrupting emergency communications

Would stuff be OK without the above? Sure. But it works a bit better with all that.

I'd encourage them to focus on the digital modes as a way to test the things they build and learn about propagation. The communities around digital modes also seem to be nicer and more diverse.

There are still lots of old guys in these parts of the hobby, but ones open-minded enough at least to learn new things, and I've not had any issues with them despite having a distinctly female first name.

WSPR is the best place to start, in my opinion - lots of results for really low capital investment (5W is high power), really lending itself to DIY.

The one place I've gotten some slight traction is that we have a group of students building a satellite for eventual launch and operations. So they have deployed a satellite ground station, and have been taking line-scan photos of our region via NOAA satellites.

Licensing is ultimately going to be important to transmit, etc.

WSPR is amazing, but there's a certain "so what"-- I can send a packet over there, too, via the public internet. Radio doesn't make sense to kids anymore: like they really don't get it.

How charming. Email is in my profile if you'd like to discuss this further.

I'm a ham and train to use radios after earthquake. But ham radio is becoming less important for disasters. Any effort for ham radio would probably be better spent on making cell network more reliable.

I would pull out satellite messenger to text people that I'm okay.

I have thought about getting Starlink for internet but it is too expensive for just disasters. I'm hoping they come out with smaller, cheaper dish. But Starlink would be perfect for command posts. Or for city to setup communication centers for the public.

What does that matter? You don't need to talk to the hams where you live. Talk to the ones over the horizon!

Anyone using words like boomers aren't worth listening to. You could have said the same thing without using slurs. This isn't Reddit.

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