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Comment by Aerroon | Hacker News Reader

>would be better served just picking a standard full-body workout routine (e.g. GZCLP)

But many people aren't going to follow those routines. It's my impression that deadlifts and squats aren't good exercises for this use case because of the danger they present.

Sure, they might be "completely safe" when "done correctly", but somebody using an app and trying to mimic exercises they see in videos or pictures is only guessing at whether they do the exercises correctly. To build muscle you need progressive overload, but that also means that "doing the exercises correctly" gets even more difficult. With most other lifts it's not that big of a deal, but with squats and deadlifts the weights get really high. A dropped barbell with squat weights can easily lead to injury. Hell, it can lead to injury when it's even just lifted the wrong way.

And when you remove those two lifts then a lot of 'standard full body workout' regimes don't work anymore.

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As humans we squat and dead lift all day. Every single person should learn how to do those two movements with some proficiency and intention. They should be part of basis of any weight program focused on health and longevity.

And while progressive overload is needed, no one is going from the bar to massive weight overnight. Also, not everyone needs to have the goal of being a power lifter. Peter Attia talks about wanting his older clients to be able to a 45lb kettlebell squat, the average weight of a toddler grandkid for example.

That specific suggested program is a 5x3 with 85% effort. People following it will be lifting considerable percentage of their body weight very quickly. Without proper muscle control, joint conditioning, knowledge of how to deal with minor injuries etc. Good program with a trainer, ok for a highly motivated individual with strength goals, terrible for an average beginner.

>People following it will be lifting considerable percentage of their body weight very quickly.

That's what we call a benefit. The reason those people are suddenly lifting their body weight? They've gotten stronger! Deadlift from day 1, people. Your back will thank you. If you're worried about it, ask someone to check your form at the gym (most people are friendly!), or just post it online (I did this when I first started lifting).

Being able to bend over and pick something heavy up off the ground is a pretty fundamentally important human movement.

Not with weight on their back. You should seek professional advice for weight training. I learned that trainers don't even let people touch a bar for a year as they repair and strengthen their core. It's all body weight and PVC pipes to develop form.

Not trying to argue with you, but that sounds more like a rehab programme than a programme designed for someone who is fully able and just wants to start resistance training. The bar is generally a fine starting point for most people but smaller dumbbells could also be used if the bar was too heavy. Also, you should be squatting in a cage with safeties, which mitigates a lot of the risk when squatting. It absolutely should not take a healthy abled person a year to start squatting 20kg.

if your trainers aren't letting you touch weights for a year you need better trainers. form is important but perfect is the enemy of good enough. if you try and be absolutely perfect before progressing at all you'll never move an inch.

Unless you are elderly or disabled in some kind of way, if you can't survive putting a bar on your back and squatting, you are a weak (physically) human. I'm not joking.

I'm a man and know more about mens standards, but if you can't back squat at least 1x your bodyweight you are probably pretty weak. Similar for deadlift. And these are just bare minimums. Most humans are FAR more capable than this. Maybe just multiply these by 0.5 for a women just based on genetic strength differences.

You can start with the bar if you want, you will eventually learn through experience based on your body your form for squatting. And the internet as well as being able to record yourself are readily available for practically everyone. Given that you can definitely learn the basics of form without necessary needing a trainer.

These threads are always insane. You can pick up a bar the first day you step into a gym. The body is an adaptation machine. Apply stress. Adapt. Repeat.

A trainer spending a year "strengthening your core" is called theft.

> Not with weight on their back.

Yeah, people do worse in real life. They pick up stuff of varying weights all the time at odd angles.

I would say that weights that approach lifting levels are rare. Most stuff that weights a lot becomes too unwieldy to lift. Anything above that tends to be something you carry with multiple people.

Also, I would say that your grip is going to be a bigger liability in those situations.

Building muscle happens in the kitchen more than the gym. For stuff like squats, I agree a barbell squat for beginners is just to aggressive. Holding the bar alone is just uncomfortable until you develop significant back muscles to hold it off your spine. Theres plenty of squat variations though that don’t require moving a disk slipping amount of weight to get a good burn in your legs.

Post proof that deadlifts and squats present unique danger.

Compare a barbell squat to a bodyweight pistol squat. What does a beginner hitting failure look like with either? For the pistol squat you can’t get up and just maybe fall over 1 foot onto your yoga mat, or just use your other leg to balance and stand. The barbell back squat failure is absolutely ugly in comparison. You are down and can’t get up, maybe you try and push anyway with your back vs legs, thats a lot of weight supported by an out of form spine now, ooff. Knowing how and when to safely bail and drop weight out of an olympic lift is not something any beginner would just naturally know to do.

The injury rate for powerlifting (sport that does squat + deadlift + bench press) is extremely low, and those who do that as a sport are probably lifting way, way more than almost everyone reading these comments ever will.

This is why there is such a thing as a power rack/squat rack. You can fail completely safely with this equipment.

If you are an olympic lifter, almost everyone is taught how to bail these lifts from the beginning with the empty bar. Most people aren't and lift in racks built just to be able to safely lift heavy. Its on you if you don't actually set up the safety bars for yourself.

Failing safely in a squat rack means you know how to bail from the weight in a way to not further injure yourself. Thats not immediately obvious, like learning to fall in other sports. I know people who were in athletics, using the school squat rack with a coach, and still ended up with injuries. Not everyone sees an olympic lifting coach before trying olympic lifts at the gym, probably a very small percentage actually do.

Any way that you fall, the pins will catch the bar before it lands on you. Failing safely, for the most part, only requires knowing how to set up the rack and safety pins properly.

Even barring that, the injury rate in squatting is quite low compared to most other sports and athletic activities of similar intensity.

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