The Alan Turing lie is laughable, Lupron wasn't even invented until 20+ years after Alan Turing was given hormone injections. The falsehoods you're spouting have the hallmarks of coming from Twitter infographics meant to enrage you. Trans care has been made into a wedge issue by US politicians as a way of taking advantage of people's ignorance about the topic, and their knee-jerk dislike of gender non-conformity. An incredible amount of non-sense is being spread, the same as it was about gay people in the 70's and 80's.
> In fact, "trans kids" has never been a thing until about two or three years ago.
Another blatant lie, but it's a fun opportunity to talk about the first trans kid in the US, Agnes Torres. She started taking hormone therapy as a child in 1950. Nearly 80 years ago.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnes_Torres
Doctors declared her intersex and she was given a fast track to having her documents changed. She went on to marry and have a nice normal life, because people left her alone. Trans people today could have the same if not for the vicious ignorance propagated by political parties looking for fresh meat.
That's a different treatment though, because puberty eventually resumes. Halting it entirely is more akin to the castrati children [1] who had their puberty physically blocked through removal of testicles.
[1] https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gender-dyspho...
Also, I do not think medical sources from America are reliable for this topic. The UK and the EU have moved away from gender-affirming care and designated it an experimental treatment. Medical and psychological associations in the US have been captured by such activists and are pushing false rhetoric such as "the science is settled" and "we have medical consensus" (note the misrepresentation here; consensus does not imply evidence-based).
US have a problem where radical activists have captured many influential cultural institutions. Anyone who disagree is automatically designated a "right-winger", "conservative", "white supremacist", "oppressor", "racist", "sexist", "homophobe", "transphobe", etc. This should be obvious to anyone looking from outside the anglo-sphere. For things to get to the point where US can't even recognise what a medical scandal is is frankly appalling, especially when their counterparts in Europe is able to do so.
[0] https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2022/11/15/nyt-questions-pube...
The UK and EU are hardly a paradise for trans people. Until recently they even REQUIRED trans people to be sterilized, I suppose under the dual assumptions that 1.) they weren't fit to have children and 2.) if there's a genetic component to being transgender it's best to weed it out.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/12/world/europe/european-cou... (this was only stricken down in 2013)
These days, you'll notice a lot of europeans calling to clamp down on transgender people because they'd prefer for them to be gay. Conversion therapy is conversion therapy, however, and whether you do it US style where you try to make someone a good straight Christian or European style where you try to make them a feminine male or butch female, it's still wrong.
As for sterilization, people bring this up without pointing out that we can bank sperm and eggs. A treatment plan for trans youth can wait until they reach a tanner stage (these are the stages of puberty) where they can bank before starting puberty blockers. That is more reasonable than an outright ban.
As for Lupron's side effects, parents are informed about possible side effects. Just like with precocious puberty. It remains telling that families are allowed to access these treatments for some reasons but not others. The double standard betrays prejudice and political meddling in the affairs of parents and doctors.
[0] https://www.bmj.com/content/380/bmj.p382
[1] https://www.bmj.com/content/380/bmj.p382/rapid-responses
Being intersex is very rare and unfortunate, and I am sympathetic to those with such birth defects.
However, the explosion in "trans kids" has nothing to do with being intersex and has everything to do with being a mental craze. There is no explanation for feelings of "gender dysphoria" rising by 1000% among young girls except for it being a mental craze, with all the encouragement and support among themselves, in social media, and among the school administrators. [1]
[1]: https://www.amazon.com/Irreversible-Damage-Transgender-Seduc...
Agnes Torres was not intersex, she was merely classed as such which allowed her to live a normal life. Funny enough, your comment itself shows why this was successful. You see intersex as more legitimate and because of that you "give it a pass."
Agnes Torres was transgender, but was treated as legitimate back in the 1950's. Being treated like a normal human being allowed her to live a good life back then, free from hate.
It goes to show, if people would just allow trans people to live their lives, they could blend in with society. The thing holding them back is just... prejudice. How sad.
For instance, any legitimate discussion or criticism about gender-affirming care, possible social cause that's driving the increase of trans-identifying teenagers (confounded by high rates of autism, mental illness, trauma), or how certain trans rights infringes on women's rights, are framed as "transphobic" by these medical and activist organisation. This would also mean that statements made by countries that are arguably more progressive than the US (i.e. UK and European countries) about the current trans issue would fall into that category as well.
Now, against the backdrop of the capture of cultural institutions by radical activists in the US who share a common foundation (critical social justice), it's hard to be sympathetic towards your claim that prejudice is what's holding them back, when the actions of the medical and activist organisations in the US is consistent with the silencing of valid criticism that other factions of the critical social justice adherents (i.e. race) have a track record of.
In other words, it's hard to believe that the medical and activist organisations in the US are actually acting in good faith; they are weaponising our empathy for marginalised groups to silence legitimate criticisms about a medical scandal and the ideological foundations driving the scandal.
Edit: Anyone of sound mind can clearly evaluate that my point isn't transphobic. The reply to this comment is a demonstration of what's wrong with the US.
> any legitimate discussion or criticism about gender-affirming care, possible social cause that's driving the increase of trans-identifying teenagers
Trans-identified is a term created by anti-trans activists initially as an "in joke" because calling someone a trans identified male or trans identified female created acronyms that spelled traditionally female and male names: TIM and TIF, where TIM would be applied to trans women and TIF would be applied to trans men. A group that is serious about improving the world wouldn't choose their terminology so as to make fun of or harass people. A hate group would.
> or how certain trans rights infringes on women's rights
It's not at all clear that trans rights infringe on women's rights. The right to segregate yourself from elements of the population that you find distasteful isn't guaranteed. Otherwise we'd still have Jim Crow laws in the American South and lesbians would still be barred from women's sports due to concerns about them being predatory in locker rooms - yes this was a big concern in the 1980's.
> the capture of cultural institutions by radical activists
This is conspiratorial thinking. "Institutions" are made up of individuals and operate under some guiding principles. They aren't captured like territories in a game of risk.
> This would also mean that statements made by countries that are arguably more progressive than the US (i.e. UK and European countries) about the current trans issue would fall into that category as well.
The UK and EU have different politics than the US. They are economically more egalitarian, but socially can be very conservative.
> it's hard to believe that the medical and activist organisations in the US are actually acting in good faith
Why would you conflate medical and activist organizations? Isn't it possible that you are the activist, and that you'd like to bend medical organizations to your will because they disagree with your own prejudices?
> Anyone of sound mind can clearly evaluate that my point isn't transphobic. The reply to this comment is a demonstration of what's wrong with the US.
Saying that nobody can disagree with you unless they are mentally unwell, and then calling someone who disagreed with you an example of "what's wrong with the US" is very odd behavior. It doesn't seem like the way someone operating in good faith would behave.
>Saying that nobody can disagree with you unless they are mentally unwell, and then calling someone who disagreed with you an example of "what's wrong with the US" is very odd behavior. It doesn't seem like the way someone operating in good faith would behave.
I don't see how I acted in bad faith. However, it appears that your comment is an odd interpretation of the additional remarks I added to my original comment. Perhaps my command of english isn't as good as I thought (I'm not in the anglosphere), or perhaps, you're the one acting in bad faith and giving a convoluted take on my remarks. Regardless, allow me to clarify; "Feggal" replied to my original comment, accusing me of being a "transphobe" and claims that he's going to tattle to Dang for my alleged transgressions. The additional remark I added to my original comment was meant to extend the original points I made about how a particular group of ideologically motivated people are contaminating the conversation, and how "Feggal"'s ad-hominem reply is an example of that. I hope this clarifies things.
Lastly, I'm not interested in entertaining any more ad-hominem attacks. For anyone reading this thread, allow me to point you to this investigative feature by the British Medical Journal (BMJ)[1], one of the most reputable journals in medicine alongside The Lancet. You figure out the discrepancy in claims between the BMJ and that of the medical associations and activist organisations in the US, and decide which of the both is the conspiratorial one.
what "explosion"? the only explosion is the right wing suddenly realizing trans people exist and turning it into a political issue.
have you considered that the reason you're seeing more about "trans kids" or people being more open about gender dysphoria because it's more socially acceptable to be LGBTQ than it was 50 years ago? or maybe because right wing outrage is profitable?
A shallow dismissal, a perfectly reasonable argument against irreversible action for changing children’s genders is that many of them aren’t so sure as it seems and later want to transition back.
About 2% want to transition back. 98% are quite sure, and are happy with being treated. Trans youth who are not treated tend to be miserable as adults, with many committing suicide since their bodies have been shaped by the puberty of their natal sex in such a way as to draw constant negative attention. While it is very reasonable to want to lower that 2% rate down even further, attempting to rip care away from that other 98% is not reasonable. Just prejudice, masquerading as concern for children, same as the 80's when "save the children" was having a national campaign against homosexual rights.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S188898912...
You've really been running wild in this comments section, as have I. I can see that we're both very interested in this topic, but from different sides.
What I'll point out here again, is that you continue to paint reputable organizations that disagree with you as "ideological" while maintaining yourself as some sort of unbiased outside observer. This is blatantly untrue.
You are the one trying to change the facts being reported by reputable sources. You are the activist who is engaged in a campaign of attempting to ideologically modify unbiased institutions.
I think the trans topic can really rile people up, and there's no shortage of think pieces of conspiracy theories about it. Same as has existed around lots of minority groups that caught the attention and ire of the larger public.
You aren't the unbiased observer however. You are an activist, and it shows in your writing.
I am not an activist, but I do care about causes that most on the left would empathise with, which is ironic given that gender-affirming care is one heralded by the "progressives" on the left. To the best of my ability, my commitment is to reason, which is something the right clearly lacked during (and after) the Trump administration, and something the left has been lacking for quite some time now.
This much should establish that I'm not some garden-variety "right-winger". Now that signalling my "creds" is out of the way (and it should never have mattered anyway), I think I have a unique perspective as an outsider. Because I have no commitment to US' abysmal politics and since I am not in the anglosphere, I'm not immersed in the local narratives that are happening on the ground. This lets me compare (much fairly) the US and UK + EU's approach to gender-affirming care, and how it's reported. So perhaps while I'm not an unbiased observer as you would put it (I have an opinion on this matter), I do think I've a much better view of what's going on than someone in a country who's narratives are dominated by their political extremes.
So here you are, making a bunch of accusations about me which you can't even bother to back up. To counter that, here's something of substance; for those who think there are no credible claims to the contrary, you can check out this investigative feature by the British Medical Journal (BMJ)[0], one of the most reputable journals in medicine alongside The Lancet.
For those who are earnest about understanding what's up, the last thing you should do when evaluating the comments of a particularly politicised topic is to automatically deem a downvoted comment as being on the "wrong" side. This is how you inherit opinions that you were never truly convinced of in the first place. Always go to the original sources, and given how politicised this is in the US, it's ideal to see how the UK and EU are handling this. It can't harm to look outside of the bubble you're in, you own your opinions afterall.
Allowing a trans child to go through their natal puberty is not a neutral act. A trans person who "passes" has a much better lifetime outcome thanks to facing less discrimination and having less body image issues (not many people living as females would enjoy being called a man in a dress and harassed regularly based on their body proportions regardless of their chromosomes).
> and not the shallowly insulting straw man argument you present as the only option.
It's not a shallow straw man. Anti-trans activists want to ban care for trans people outright. They want conversion therapy - or what they have slickly labled "gender exploratory therapy" - to be the only treatment available.
If we hadn't lived through many decades where such treatment was already the only option and seen how disastrous it was I may be less inclined to say they are acting in bad faith, but, alas, we know exactly what conversion therapy does: it creates incredibly traumatized adults who are still trans.
If your arguments consist of assigning outrageous opinions to people you disagree with, your argument is invalid and you’re bound to be wrong.
I cannot imagine a greater horror then having gender dysphoria, knowing exactly what is wrong, and still being forced to go through the wrong puberty (which does inflict irreparable harm, for us) because some "concerned" parents want decades of medical history on blockers before they deign to allow you to receive medical care. I wonder how that medical history is supposed to be built if no one is allowed to take blockers?
I'm not even going to engage with your bad faith argument that trans kids are only in the last 2-3 years.
I'm not under any illusion a person with your opinions could ever be swayed, but hopefully other reasonable people will see this comment and not fall victim to your scare tactics.
It's a shame that this person was in such a difficult situation, but, barring some extraordinarily rare reaction, a few months would not cause long term problems. The full impact takes several years, by 3-6 months the very first changes are only starting to become visible and many of them are things like changes to skin quality and fat distribution which revert after cessation.
It's still possibly a failure that your acquaintance got on HRT or Lupron in the first place. Given that long term follow ups show, consistently, that less than 2% of trans youth "desist" and are happy with their treatments, the reasonable solution to that failure would be to require some sort of evaluation by a therapist who has been trained to spot when someone has gender dysphoria and belongs to that 98% of happy transitioners versus someone from the 2% group that will desist because their issues came from somewhere else.
Instead of that sort of reasonable response, we see calls for outright bans on all treatment with many also calling for banning treatment for adults and a reversion to conversion therapy as the only "treatment" - it's not a treatment because it doesn't work and just hurts people.
The reason for this, is that the vast majority of people who suddenly have such strong opinions on trans health care are not actually concerned about people's health. They've just found a way to make their prejudices against transgender people sound like reasonable concerns.
And "someone who did this under duress regretted it hence no one should do this" isn't a sound argument.
[1]: https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-tran...
[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/04/07/americas-...
because it's more socially acceptable to discuss these issues than it was 50 years ago...
it is also undoubtedly true that it is more rewarding on a political level to not have any doubt on these issues than it was just 10 years ago.
Entire careers have been built on it. On both sides.
But, incredibly enough, the ones on the "precaution" approach are on the far right side.
If we saw the same increase in cases of kids having mental health issues, which is also more socially acceptable to talk about than 50 years ago, we would be worried sick, we would ask why it happened and what caused it, not simply treat the symptoms and call it a definitve solution.
studies would also show that their life is better than when they were not treated, but is relying on anti depressants really a good life?
is asking the question proof that the person asking hates (or is phobic of), for some reason, people with mental health issues?
1) Turing was not force-fed. He chose that treatment over spending a year in prison. https://archive.org/details/alanturingenigma0000hodg_q8b8/pa...
2) Turing was given DES - diethylstilbestrol - a nonsteroidal estrogen medication. It is an agonist of the estrogen receptors. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diethylstilbestrol . For a non-Wikipedia source, https://archive.org/details/prof.-alan-turing-decoded-a-biog...
3) Lupron is a brand name for leuprorelin, "in the gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) analogue family of medications". It looks nothing like DES and has a very different method of action ("decreasing gonadotropin and therefore decreasing testosterone and estradiol"). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leuprorelin
4) Leuprorelin wasn't discovered until 1973. https://academic.oup.com/jjco/article/43/4/357/976035?login=... . Turing died in 1954. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing .
Since that was outright wrong, I will easily assume everything else you write on the topic is equally wrong.
They've been used for more than 40 years and few grave side effects have been recorded. It's not a new thing, as I've said, it was and still is fairly common for short kids to be put on GnRH blockers.
> With puberty blockers and in adults treated with GAHT, unintended systemic biological changes may occur which may increase the risk of chronic diseases, such as osteoporosis. Sex hormones are well known in playing a crucial role in bone acquisition at puberty, 6 and in adulthood, it regulates bone homeostasis.7–9 Therefore, hormone treatments (puberty blockers and GAHT) can affect bone health both in adolescents who undergo puberty suspension and in transgender adults.
Gender affirming hormones, such as estrogen, do cause osteoporosis - that's why women are more prone to osteoporosis than men. Puberty blockers have not been linked to osteoporosis in pre-pubescent patients, despite more than 40 years of use.
GnRH blockers are however dangerous in adults because you need adult level of sex hormones for your bodily function and as such are generally not used for an extended period of time - in pre-pubescent children however it moreso prevents their increase from puberty than it suppresses current levels. This is because GnRH is not produced in significant quantities before puberty, so suppressing it further has far fewer side effects.
I didn't know I was still a child as recently as 2020. I remember fondly having a girls' theater night to see Shrek with my mom and sister, but I must have hallucinated all of it!
Trans kids are just as much a thing as cis kids and have been for just as long. The existence of a thing is not dependant on it being in the public consciousness.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7073269/ "These results align with past literature, suggesting that pubertal suppression for transgender adolescents who want this treatment is associated with favorable mental health outcomes" - that sure sounds like care to me
> Attacking and shaming concerned parents as being "transphobic" for questioning this practice is not a helpful solution. We don't have the long-term data to ensure this is safe for kids
There are plenty of parents who are concerned that vaccines cause autism and question that practice. That doesn't mean vaccinations are unsafe. We do have data and overwhelmingly shows that these kinds of treatment are safe and effectice https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-the-science-... https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/political-minds/2022...
> In fact, "trans kids" has never been a thing until about two or three years ago.
This is like saying that gay kids didn't exist until the 80s