Comment by wernercd | Hacker News Reader

Comment by wernercd | Hacker News Reader

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I'm a Christian too... but that's not the topic at hand here - love the sinner, hate the sin. I can love you and hate the decisions you make because the are "wrong". I support family and love them end when they are dipshits and make stupid choices.

"tolerant of and good to other people"

tolerant doesn't mean you have to support or endorse. If I was, say, anti-Trans (which I'm not - you live your life. You answer for your decisions.)? as a Christian? I can still be the Christlike example and love you. Help you. And still tell you "God loves and you're in the right body". In loving you and accepting you but not supporting your "sins"? I would have the right and duty to not create a cake, shirt, website with a message that's pro-your life.

I can be tolerant of you being an alcoholic or a drug addict... I would be under no pressure to buy alcohol/drugs/etc to support your bad lifestyle.

And again... this isn't about me personally. It doesn't matter how fortunate you are or what life you live. You don't have the right to force others to create works that support what you think is "good". Just like I wouldn't have the right to say YOU can't create a cake for "pride month".

Jesus helped less fortunate... he helped the sick, the lame, the dead. That doesn't mean he endorsed their lifestyles.

Nothing about Jesus supports FORCING others to be "tolerant" of sin and to ENDORSE sinful activity. He helps? Again... that doesn't mean he loves the sin or endorses it.

I agree that you don't have to be compelled to assist someone in sinning, and in there is where I think the nuance of these decisions come in. It would be one thing if someone was being forced to help physically harm someone, help murder, help steal, etc. I'm not sure that being a drug addict falls into that category, but I digress.

In this case, I do not think this web designer would be helping anyone sin, honestly they are probably just providing a template and some theme, copy would be basically immaterial.

Then comes the more theoretical aspect, which is how do I know I'm helping someone sin by helping gay people get married? The Pope says it's not for us to judge, and I agree. So what I'm saying is that reasonable people can disagree on this being an infringement of religious rights, and that is essentially what I was trying to talk about.

I am a Marine, I went to war, I did things I can't take back or be forgiven for in the literal Old Testament version of things, but Jesus said, basically, forget all that old fire and wrath, you're forgiven if you ask for it. I try to treat everyone as most people treat me, which is to say not to throw stones at me as I walk down the street, or whatever the equivalent is in our time. That's my personal philosophy, and I think makes for much more interesting discussion about this. Do you see where I'm coming from?

"I do not think this web designer would be helping anyone sin" This seems to be where we differ.

The designer/cake maker/etc is implicitly supporting if one of their products has the message in support of it.

When Target sells pro-trans shirts? The company is implicitly supportive of it - just like a cake shop would be implicitly supportive of Nazi's if they baked a birthday cake with "Happy Birthday Hitler KKK Forever". Someone else could take those shirts from target or the cake and put that directly with the company logo and the company receipt and the company selling it.

"The Pope says it's not for us to judge, and I agree" but you can say "I'm not making you a blue/blue cake" while also saying "Live your life the way you want. I'm not judging you - that's Gods place. But I'm also not making something in support of something I think is wrong. I love you but I can't support your actions."

"I am a Marine" Ooh-Rah Brother. 2000-2005 and two trips to Iraq. Thank God I was in the back - the dirty POG I am - and I didn't have to actively do anything PTSD inducing.

With that said? Asking for forgiveness means you admit those things were wrong and living Christ-like means that you actively stop doing those things and live the example. I can't judge you for being a "baby killer", a prostitute, an alcoholic, a drug addict, etc (as a Marine? You're probably all of the above /snicker)... but I can say it's wrong and that I won't take actions that endorse your decisions.

I think our disagreement comes from the definition of tolerant - I can tolerate your bad decisions, love you and still tell you that you're wrong. I can accept that it's not my place to judge - but it is my place to live a Christ like example which is accepting that I'm a sinner and you're a sinner. God judges you and I don't... but that doesn't mean I have to implicitly or explicitly support your decisions.

And for this discussion? In America where Religion is a protected class... that means we can't force someone to do something against their religion. We have to accommodate those who want Sunday off. Saturday off. We have to accommodate those who want to wear head gear.

We also have to accommodate those who own companies and don't want their brands associated with something their religion says is harram.

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