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Comment by tomcar288 | Hacker News Reader

>>> "Electric vehicles generate fewer carbon emissions than those powered by combustion engines over their lifetimes, and what you’re about to read doesn’t dispute that. But EV adoption is tripping over range limitations, patchy charging networks, and high prices resulting from the cost of the batteries that power them."

It sounds like EVs are the best option long term: it's just that in the short term there's a few snafus along the way.

Personally, I'm only going to buy another EV and nothing else will do, even if I have to wait a year, two years or even 5 years. I've got an electric bike and I know how to use it.

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The only way we'll ever actually get around to solving the problems with EVs is if they're widely produced and used. I'm not saying that battery or charging station production will follow any sort of exponential curve, but economies of scale are a thing, and once EV ownership hits a critical mass, they will be catered to.

A brave soul at my condo complex bought a tesla. I have been trying to get the board to allow the installation of charging spots for years now, but if there are enough of us, it will be impossible to ignore us.

> I have been trying to get the board

Have you tried getting ON the board ?

Maybe as a single issue candidate

I'm not even sold on that interpretation either. There's a lot of externalities in the lithium battery industry that are being glossed over in most of those calculations. And gasoline can be made carbon-neutral through synthesis, using either solar or, ideally, waste heat from nuclear power to turn CO2 into gasoline. In that world a hybrid gets the best of both.

The main reason for wanting an all-electric future in my mind is the health benefits of not breathing in combustion byproducts every time you go outside. It's worth it for that.

Lithium is not the future of batteries. As far as I know, there is no law of physics saying we won't someday have 2000Wh/kg metal-free flow batteries or something.

Lithium is just what we have now, and because business and politics is incremental(I'm not exactly a fan of that trait) we can't just say "Lets build all the charging infrastructure for cars that don't exist yet, stockpile electric cars with no batteries, and switch all at once as soon as we invent the better nonlithium tech to put in them".

Sometimes I wonder how much we could get done if people really did think like that though.

> not breathing in combustion byproducts every time you go outside

Also, engine noise. Noise pollution in cities can be maddening, and it's mainly car engines.

Most road noise generated from a vehicle is from tires on the ground once you get above 18 mph. Modern mufflers are remarkably effective at silencing the engine.

IIRC at highway speeds the overall shape of the car moving through the air is also a significant noise generator, but I don't remember where I read that right now.

I have a hybrid, and it’s definitely noticeable when the engine is on. Maybe it’s a lack of space for a decent muffler?

Source?

Not scientific, but literally just stand next to a road. A normal car driving at speed makes a “whoosh” noise, not a “vroom” noise.

Yeah I have no issues hearing an ICE vehicle coming from behind me when I'm on my bike. OTOH I have had many scared sudden encounters with an EV coming into my field of view.

Tyres on the road are white noise and barely noticeable. I don't know if they're louder than engines in terms of decibels as I've never measured either, but engines are definitely much more of a nuisance.

I can't find the exact studies anymore, but it's indirectly referenced by current regulations: https://www.regulations.gov/document/NHTSA-2011-0148-0075

> As required by the PSEA, (1) this rule proposes to establish FMVSS No.141, Minimum Sound Requirements for Hybrid and Electric Vehicles, which would require [quiet vehicles] to produce sounds meeting the requirements of this standard. This proposed standard applies to EVs and to those HVs that are capable of propulsion in any forward or reverse gear without the vehicle's ICE operating. The PSEA requires NHTSA to establish performance requirements for an alert sound that is recognizable as motor vehicle in operation that allows blind and other pedestrians to reasonably detect a nearby EV or HV operating below the crossover speed. The crossover speed is the speed at which tire noise, wind noise, and other factors eliminate the need for a separate alert sound.

>[...]

> This standard will ensure that blind, visually-impaired, and other pedestrians are able to detect and recognize nearby hybrid and electric vehicles by requiring that hybrid and electric vehicles emit sound that pedestrians will be able to hear in a range of ambient environments and contain acoustic signal content that pedestrians will recognize as being emitted from a vehicle. The proposed standard establishes minimum sound requirements for hybrid and electric vehicles when operating under 30 kilometers per hour (km/h) (18 mph), when the vehicle's starting system is activated but the vehicle is stationary, and when the vehicle is operating in reverse.

The EU has established a similar rule as well, though I think they only require up to 12mph. Wikipedia says there's a 2008 study that confirms it but it's source link is broken:

> A separate 2008 study from Western Michigan University found that hybrids and conventional vehicles are equally safe when travelling more than about 20 miles per hour (32 km/h), because tire and wind noise generate most of the audible cues at those speeds. Hybrid cars were also tested safe when moving off at traffic lights and it was found that under this condition they do not pose a risk to pedestrians. All Prius models used in the study engaged their internal combustion engines when accelerating from a standstill and produced enough noise to be detected.[13]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle_warning_sound...

Yeah it was amazing for a few weeks during the height of the COVID lockdowns when all that freeway traffic went away and the smog cleared. Had no idea what we were missing out on.

Soon it will be the mandated noisemakers on EVs.

instead you get to breathe in that sweet, sweet tire dust, which hybrids and EVs tend to make more of because they're typically heavier than their ICE counterparts.

but until the electrical grid is moved to cleaner sources (including nuclear for baseload), it doesn't make much difference what you drive. with the current distribution of generation, we'd be mostly shifting the pollution from tailpipes to smokestacks (especially at the margin) rather than getting rid of it--coal emissions are many times worse than tailpipe emissions, not to mention the pollution from coal, oil & gas extraction.

and pollution is exactly what we should be worried about, not CO₂, which is the worst sort of distraction when trying to make sense of the environmental dangers we're creating (it muddies the waters to create uncertainty and inaction).

> coal emissions are many times worse than tailpipe emissions

The CO2 output of a coal powered EV and a gasoline car are roughly equivalent. If you add in the CO2 used when refining the gasoline and when transporting the fuel to gas stations, gasoline cars are about 50% worse.

> and pollution is exactly what we should be worried about, not CO₂,

For most pollutions, especially for PM2.5, locality is super important. Gasoline engines run in populated areas, power plants aren't.

again, CO₂ doesn't matter, despite the mediopolitical hysteria over it. it's a gas that life depends on and is well-adapted to. but pollution has been killing millions of people a year for at least a hundred years already and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. generation and transportation account for the majority of that pollution.

Which is why the "correct" way to build a hybrid vehicle is an electric vehicle with an optional gas powered range extender. Im not sure why this isn't more common.

I bought an EV without a range extender (an identical car with a range extender was a comparable price).

Why would I want to change the oil on the range extender, deal with emissions tests, and so on? That's a bigger pain than just renting an ICE car for the 1-2 times a year when we take a road trip.

Same here. I have two old EVs. A Renault Twizy, 70km of range, which is really great for city driving (I even have a tow hitch on it in order to go to the recycling place), and a more "real" car: Hyundai Ioniq, 200km of range, which I use to go on road trips and the like. Yes, it takes more time, but hey, there's no maintenance, and I love that.

Because the goal is to transition to electric first, not have electric cars and traditional ICE cars for everyone who doesn't fit the use case for an electric car.

This (points up). I have a 120-mile-range i3 with the range extender. It's not enough of an extender for any long trip, and I don't need such a thing often enough to really care. I go to the gas station every six months to refill the tiny tank that's run down from the built-in maintenance cycle, and am struck every time by how much gasoline stinks. I think I'd rather have had extra battery.

Emissions testing is only once every other year, and changing oil is easy to do at home and takes less than an hour including gathering the tools and cleaning up after.

Every time I've rented a car it's been a substantial hassle, and I've felt anxious about how much it might cost me if something happened to the car while I was responsible for it.

Different people have different ideas about what's a pain.

> changing oil is easy to do at home and takes less than an hour including gathering the tools and cleaning up

If you already own and know everything you need, yes. Most regular people don’t own a jack capable of lifting the car high enough. Most people don’t own jack stands to make getting under the car safe. Most people don’t own an oil filter wrench. Most people in cities can’t just do all this on the street without getting their legs run over. Most people don’t know how to dispose of motor oil. Most people don’t know or are not allowed to know which oil to buy and how much (my car’s manual doesn’t say that).

Absolutely. The cost benefit analysis of changing your oil vs getting it done at your mechanic's tilts heavily toward the latter, especially if you only own one car.

I get full service 5W20 oil change (with fluids top up, oil disposal while no effort and have the assurance that the job will done impeccably) in under 20 minutes for $29 at my local mechanic. I do this 3 times a year, and it's $87.

Whereas I were to do it myself, I'd have to invest in $274 worth of equipment, and the 5W20 itself is about $15. It'll take about 20 oil changes to break even (roughly 6 years) and then after you'll really only be saving $42 a year, not to mention the time cost and oil disposal hassle.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a27169631/how-to-chang...

I don't quite agree with the economic assessment, as I need the jack, jack stands, wrench for the drain plug, etc. for other maintenance and repair tasks, too. The only single-purpose tool is the oil filter wrench, and that was about $10.

Can't argue with your bottom line, though. Even if I consider my time free, I don't really come out ahead.

But - I like changing oil in my car. I get to see the oil as it drains out, the color of it, if it's the amount I expect to see, or if the car's burned some since the last change. It's an excuse to look around under the car and notice if there's any unexpected damage. It just feels good to personally take care of a piece of the infrastructure I depend on.

I think there's one other big advantage of your way, though: you're maintaining a relationship with a mechanic who you trust.

You're evaluating it for yourself, and that's normal, but there's a lot of diversity out there with vehicle needs and EVs have serious limitations for some use cases.

This is basically how Toyota's hybrid engine works. Almost everything is powered off the inverter. I think the only thing that isn't is the gas engine's water pump, which has no reason to be electric.

It's way more efficient to build the a hybrid with the gas engine as part of the drivetrain than only use it power electric motors.

Toyota's eCVT? Not at all. The gas engine can drive the front wheels directly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jofycaXByTc Conceptual explanation of the system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O61WihMRdjM Weber Auto giving an extensive hands on explanation.

Which I indirectly mention in my second paragraph.

It’s true that most accessories in the car are electric, but the ICE is a full blown, powerful car engine that’s mechanically connected to the wheels and that in some regimes directly drives the car. I don’t think that was what OP meant.

That's exactly what a hybrid car is. My 2021 Toyota is an all-electric drive train. Even the old Prius there used to be people practicing "zen driving" where they try to keep the engine from turning on. That's only possible if the gas engine is being used as a range extender.

It's just that the no-gas range of a hybrid is something crazy low, like 4 miles or something, since it has a very small battery. The plug-in hybrids improve that situation just by adding a larger battery, not by changing the mechanics of how the drive works.

Nope, Toyota uses a pretty complicated arrangement of an ICE mechanically linked to the wheels and two electric motors able to send power back and forth and a planetary gear transmission between them. It’s an amazing system that makes it feel like the ICE isn’t even driving the car directly, but most of the time it actually is.

Then how are people able to drive without the ICE even being on?

Toyota's HSD is pretty brilliant, and uses planetary gears that can blend electric/engine 0-100% depending on needs. The engine is never "disconnected" when the electric motors are the ones providing power.

It’s a planetary gear, three shafts go in. The ICE one is stopped, the wheels one is driven by an electric motor and the third one is rotating freely.

Range extenders should be something on a trailer you tow behind you, and which you can rent for a long-haul road trip. Whether that something is a 200KWh battery pack, or a gas/diesel based generator doesn't really matter.

I mean at that point can't you just tow a trailer running a diesel generator recharging your car?

EVs don’t allow that. Either you’re driving or charging.

Source?

Every commercially MFGd EV has an electronic interlock on the cable to keep you from busting the charge port.

Isn’t this exactly how most PHEVs are designed?

That’s called a series hybrid and very few cars use that configuration. BMW i3 had a series hybrid version that was discontinued a few years ago, and there was the Chevy Volt (also discontinued).

I drive a Volt and I’m convinced this configuration of car is what many Americans should be buying until battery manufacturing ramps up and EV fast charging infrastructure is widely deployed. It gets 45-60mi range but it charges just fine overnight from a 120v plug. Most of the time it’s an EV, but we need the extra range several times a month for longer local trips or to visit family in a nearby city. The gas engine requires very little maintenance because it runs infrequently and at optimal RPM and load, it weighs less than a 200mi+ range battery, and (for now) it’s easier to manufacture from more common materials.

I agree. I also drive a volt and 98% of the time it's driven with the battery, but those 2% of the time where I need/want the engine (like a camping trip this past weekend), it's really great.

I don't every want a 100% electric car. We're a 1 car household so I really want the flexibility of going wherever without having to plan around the charger network.

The current Honda hybrids (Civic for sure and I think CRV also) work kind of that way - in slow speeds it works like a series hybrid and only in freeway speeds it connects the ICE to the wheels.

The claimed mileage is similar to Toyota's planetary power splitting thingie, no idea how it works in the real world.

You could also say that hydrogen fuel cell vehicles are series hybrids, since the fuel cell mostly charges a battery, which is much more flexible in what power it can provides and can be recuperated into, unlike a fuel cell which is one-way.

Honda e:HEV, Nissan e-power are series hybrid system afaik. It was considered to inefficient system in theory, but it seems fine (but not so great as THS), drive feeling is very close to BEV, and can share development resource with PHEV/BEV.

I think most of the PHEVs (at least in Europe) are hybrids that have a normal gas engine and a small electric engine.

yes, or approximately so. many can also have the generator drive the wheels.

"optional gas powered range extender"

Is this how we are re-branding internal combustion engines?

There are still plenty of ICE engines that aren't "optional gas powered range extenders." If anything it seems more like a re-brand of "generators" since the engine producers electricity rather than direct drive train force. The term seems genuinely useful to me, not just some marketing buzzword or spin.

The "gas powered range extender" is a generator I assume?

yes

I love my ICE car. It has almost 200k miles and is still running strong. I will drive it until the engine dies, at which point I will convert it to fully electric.

Yes, like any technology, it takes time and real-world use to mature it.

As it stands right now, EV's are NOT up to the task of replacing Combustion Engines full stop, even in the light commercial/consumer car markets. Are they improving each year and able to cover more and more applications where ICE previously excelled? Yeah.

But EV's are pretty shit right now tbh. Sure, they're perfectly fine for a broad part of the personal/consumer car market. There's a LOT of owners of Camry's, Impala's, Civics, etc that would love a similar form factor EV Version of their car. I'm not denying that. But Camry's and Civic's and Joe Blows daily driver aren't the biggest polluters. Additionally, car pooling and public transit could reduce the number of personal commuter consumer vehicles by massive numbers, it would have a far bigger impact on local/regional air quality/pollution than switching them to EV's ever could hope to.

It's the trucks, from pickups all the way up that are the key, and why I say EV's are shit. You can't carpool fully loaded Semi Trucks together (not safely anyway). If your metric for "EV better than ICE" revolves around Emissions, then your EV needs to be able to match the 8+ hour duty cycle of a combustion powered work truck, while beating it on emissions. Battery/Charging tech isn't quite there yet, though a high capacity battery swap system (despite having a multitude of it's own challenges) would help "bridge the gap". Just look at the Rivian and it's terrible mileage when actually hauling a load (even with regen braking, they don't beat diesel on range, despite eating MULTIPLE thousand pounds into the GVWR budget). This is where the reality and logistics of EV's today just fall flat for long haul and large/heavy freight, and unlike with camry's, there aren't viable alternatives like public transit, biking, carpool etc.

And GM's about to learn a very hard lesson by not allowing Android/Apple Car Play to drive this point home.

Also

> Electric vehicles generate fewer carbon emissions than those powered by combustion engines over their lifetimes,

How many EV's do you have to go through to match the lifetime of 1 ICE powered vehicle? Genuine question, they traditionally have been significantly worse, but battery tech is getting pretty good.

Toyota's right. Hybrids are the way to go TODAY, because there's a lot more to this debate than Emissions (Like it or not, the grid is not ready for a rapid turnover of ICE to EV, and it wont be cheap to address). Long term, assuming we don't hit some sort of hard wall with battery tech or something, they absolutely will be superior.

Though, frankly, I'd much rather see this car centric madness die. Advocating for EV's or hybrids over ICE is a lot like advocating for a duller knife because it kills you slower when what you really need to do is realize you don't need a knife for 99% of your daily tasks in the first place.

But the world can still breath so we're not ready for that discussion yet.

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