Comment by tomkin | Hacker News Reader

Comment by tomkin | Hacker News Reader

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OK. I watched the whole interview and, I have to say, Sherman seems to understand technology better than I had figured. He even appears tolerable, approachable and maybe even someone who would listen to reason. Is it a front? We have every reason to think it is.

Personally, I never would have thought I'd hear the RIAA talk about millions of songs for $10/month. Question of course is, did the RIAA kill the subscription model and then announce it's failure? Still, $10/month is pocket change in exchange for never having to hunt for music.

There is an invisible sheath of social truth. The elephant in the room. We've all pirated music, software or movies at some point. None of us openly admit it, and if asked we all say "Ya, the artist should be compensated". Then we pirate more music and movies, proclaiming, "They're the thieves! They give artists X% of the profits!". True. But I still don't see an argument for pirating music - or at least, pirating music but pretending you think it is wrong.

I don't think anyone wants to pirate music. What people want is convenience. If the incentive for route X is greater than route Y, route X is destined to be the popular route by default. $10/month vs. searching the pirate bay every time I hear a new song I like? $10/month wins.

The RIAA is generally evil, don't get me wrong. But I imagined a complete jack ass at the helm, and I am surprised to see something different.

I openly admit it. When I hear a song I like I immediately download the artist's entire discography. And then when they come to town, I go to their shows.

You should add: and then I also go to itunes or Amazon and buy their entire catalog legally.

The point's been made that artists make so little from downloads and streaming that it literally isn't worth it for you to purchase from iTunes or Amazon downloads compared to, say, buying one out of five albums on CD or vinyl. And maybe also purchasing merchandise directly from the artists website.

Either way, you should at least purchase the music via legal means.

Why? Give me a good reason. This is exactly what tomkin, the top-level commenter, meant (or at least my understanding of it). It's just "politically correct" to say/do that, but rarely does anyone ever ask why. So let me do just that.

Because it's "illegal" to acquire it by other means?

The law is not a moral authority by any means. At least it shouldn't be. Ideally, things are against the law because they are considered to be morally wrong. The other way 'round (something is morally wrong because it is against the law) is a similar fallacy as confusing correlation with causation. It just doesn't follow.

There's a quite nice saying in Germany, frequently attributed to Berthold Brecht, that roughly translates to "When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes obligation.". That's essentially the current situation - injustice is law. Piracy is but one of many forms of resistance.

To calm our conscience?

I don't think downloading music is wrong. In fact, I don't think sharing anything can be considered wrong in any way, and I must actually commend the content industry for managing to twist and pervert the public's perception of morality to such a degree. It's the most natural action a human being can undertake. And digital data isn't scarce - there's absolutely no reason not to share it. It's the refusal to share (and the active battle against it) that should be considered highly unethical.

To support the artist?

There're better ways that don't involve dead and obsolete business models (distribution of information, which is virtually cost-free today), such as going to see a show, or maybe buying their merchandise. I know some people who frown on donations because they argue that would make artists beggars, but I prefer to liken donations to tip money. Crowd-funding is slowly becoming more accepted and might face wide-spread adoption in a few years. I like this approach because it's essentially a service based model - the artist gets paid once to create something, and it can be freely used by everyone when it's complete - there's no monopoly rent on something that's not inherently scarce.

And finally, accept the fact that not everyone is able to live off their art, and that's fine too. No one is entitled to succeed in a given job, and no one is entitled to protection of their business model if something comes along that makes it obsolete.

Piracy isn't a moral resistance 'code'. It is just a way to get things for free with a (very small) chance of any repercussions. If some new magic technology was invented overnight, and the risk of being sued went up to 99% every time you tried to download something in violation of copyright I think this 'moral code' would disappear quite quickly. This is a cover up for 'I want free shit, and I am not going to get in trouble, so I do it'.

How about going to each and every artist you believe you should be able to download for free and get their permission to copy their art first? They created their work for your entertainment, it should be their decision to say weather you can have it for free, or for a price.

>Piracy isn't a moral resistance 'code'.

Why? Because you say so? I don't think so.

>It is just a way to get things for free with a (very small) chance of any repercussions. If some new magic technology was invented overnight, and the risk of being sued went up to 99% every time you tried to download something in violation of copyright I think this 'moral code' would disappear quite quickly. This is a cover up for 'I want free shit, and I am not going to get in trouble, so I do it'.

What I'm saying is that these repercussions are completely unjustified and morally wrong. Appeals to (imaginary, and quite frankly, impossible) force don't change that. You're essentially saying the same as "If being gay was against the law and we had the power to crack down on gay people, that would make being gay wrong".

>How about going to each and every artist you believe you should be able to download for free and get their permission to copy their art first?

I must present you with a counter-question instead: based on what moral authority should an artist (or anyone else) be allowed to forbid me to copy art?

Let me say it again: there's nothing more inherently good and natural than sharing. If you are opposed to sharing (of a truly non-scarce resource, at that), then it's you who's arguing against one of, if not the most universally accepted ethical practice of humanity.

Take note that nobody can be forced to share. The opposite, however, holds true as well: you can't force people to stop sharing. Or to put it in another, polemic way: if you don't want people to share your art, lock it up in your basement and never show it to anyone.

>They created their work for your entertainment, it should be their decision to say weather you can have it for free, or for a price.

I don't see why. Sure, they can charge people for distribution done by themselves if they so chose. That doesn't mean they have any authority to tell people who acquired a copy to further share said copy, with or without compensation.

You believe it is your right to get someone elses hard earned work for free, just because it is only a few clicks away and without consequence, and also ignore their wishes if they ask to be compensated?

Logical conclusion: We can consider whatever you do 9-5 to pay the bills also as your 'art'. I as your boss now decree that you are entitled to $0 compensation this month.

You are extremely happy now yes, because 'art wants to be free'?

Don't be ridiculous. There is an employer/employee contract about getting paid what you were promised. Has nothing to do with what you did. They could have had you do absolutely nothing but sit in a chair and wait for a week because there was no job to do and you still get paid.

But if you shovel a walkway the adjacent store gets to use it without paying a dime.

The artist is promised a cut of a sale of an album when it is purchased, since it is being copied (which is still illegal if I'm not mistaken) and not purchased he isn't getting paid either. Hence he should be getting paid for his work.

It seems the sentiment has become one of: since music and movies are easy enough to copy online without me getting in trouble, and for free, the price of art should also drop to zero as a whole. This doesn't look like something anyone in the music or movie industry would think is a good thing would it?

But nobody at all promised to purchase the album. That's the difference. An employer agreed upfront to purchase your work. I could promise you a cut of just about any action, and you wouldn't ipso facto be morally owed people performing that action.

What matters is not what an industry thinks, but what is best for society. I personally think a couple decades of copyright is a good thing but it does not equate to employment.

I don't really equate the fact that music has become easy to copy that the expectation is you shouldn't have to pay for it anymore if you don't feel like it, and that is best for society.

I'm sorry, it's impossible to argue rationally with you. You make fallacious assumptions, jump to (illogical) conclusions and I feel that you are just one step short of accusing me to be a petty thief. You aren't even trying to understand what I am arguing.

Have a nice day.

I get things for free that were made for free. Seems like a pretty good deal on both sides to me.

by made I mean manufactured, or in this case, duplicated digitally. I'm not talking about the artist's efforts actually creating the music. I'd be happy to send them a 10 spot if I like their music and they asked for it.

Then by all means from now on do not download a single album from an artist until you've located their home address and written them a check for $10. Or are you just posturing? I'd like to think so.

Speaking as a musician with a small body of work, I want people to download my songs, pirated or otherwise.

If you want to give me money, send me some or come to one of my shows. I was involved with a label/mngt. company in the 90's and they just ripped me off. Don't give them any money by buying "official" records.

Kill Hollywood: Pirate...download and direct your dollars directly to the musicians. Ignore the agents and the middlemen. They're parasites.

How about letting each artist decide his/her own policy on if they want you to download their music for free or not? I see artists signed to major labels tweeting that they want you to buy their music. It isn't black or white.

But you're not understanding - the artist can't decide because piracy is unpreventable. It's over, just stop with them moral battle. The floodgates are open, and it will never close unless we all agree to compromise the internet. So it's either adapt or get a real job.

I'm not saying at all that the industry shouldn't make it easier to acquire works digitally at a decent price, but it still doesn't make it any moral issue, or inherently an 'art wants to be free' issue just because in the last 20 years you've been able to easily copy entertainment without fear of repercussion. People still deserve to be paid for their time and hard work, plain and simple.

Note the followup post will be: 'Just go to their concerts! All is well!'. Since Ticketmaster screws me out of about 30 bucks for each pair of tickets I buy, should we be trying to sneak into concerts for free because 'the man' is doing things we don't like even though the artist is receiving some of the profits from a legal sale?

> So it's either adapt or get a real job.

I'd rather adapt.

I can bet the majority of musicians would opt for my method.

Not if I want the artist to get the music; thats what shows are for.

Most of the money from online purchases go to the label.

     I imagined a complete jack ass at the helm,
     and I am surprised to see something different.

Don't let the show put by him distract you. Of course he's competent. These things are never pulled off by incompetents.

     I still don't see an argument for pirating music

I still don't see an argument for punishing people for pirating music. Sharing is in our genes, just as sex. Preferring free stuff is also in our genes. Wanting convenience is also in our genes.

The model of selling tapes or CDs was based on scarcity. Now that scarcity is gone, because with a few clicks and key-presses you can find anything.

And really, punishing users for pirating content is just like punishing them for having sex.

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