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Comment by rfwhyte | Hacker News Reader

Still waiting for the other shoe to drop with a pricing announcement. I keep getting almost excited about the Framework 16", but then I'm remember it's probably going to be well over $2500USD for a decently specced model (without a GPU even) and my excitement quickly dissipates.

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What's the alternative high quality laptop in that price-range though?

A Dell XPS that comes with a lose trackpad, massive coil whine, batteries that drain when plugged in and so on?

Or an LG Gram Pro (more expensive than Framework) that isn't sold outside of the US and maybe some Asian countries where the only thing you can upgrade is the SSD?

Or maybe some Apple laptop?

I personally feel the price of a Framework is fair, even if it is 2500 USD (or more). Not necessarily because Framework is great (I would prefer 17"), but more because the alternatives are worse or don't exist.

A Thinkpad T16 is going to be under $1,600.

From [0], the only model under $1600 is bizarrely discounted 45% from $2849, which I assume is a limited-time offer.

The lowest-end model costs $1959, and is pretty meh: 8GB RAM, 256GB SSD, crap 720p camera.

The higest-end model is also strangely 45%-off discounted, but runs $3769 regular. If the Framework 16 ends up costing $2500 (or even $3000) for a reasonably-spec'd setup, I think that'd be pretty fair, especially given the configurability and upgradeability. If you don't value those things, then you probably shouldn't be considering Framework in the first place.

[0] https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpadt/th...

FYI Never buy a thinkpad at list price. They are constantly discounted.

Don't forget to check the screens on Lenovo laptops. Their prices, other specs and keyboards are usually good, but then the display is either low res or dim.

The T16 comes with the following display in Australia: 16.0" WUXGA (1920 x 1200), IPS, Anti-Glare, Non-Touch, 45%NTSC, 300 nits, 60Hz

There's a cost to buying machines that are sustainable and use well paid workers, just like there's a cost to cage free eggs.

I believe Foxconn, the main assembler for Apple, still sleeps 6 workers to an apartment.

Note that the apartment is only 100 sq.Ft at the same time

> I believe Foxconn, the main assembler for Apple, still sleeps 6 workers to an apartment.

The thing is, if Chinese labor becomes more expensive, these workers will get replaced either by an automated factory elsewhere (maybe in America!) and unemployment.

Considering how we're talking about a manufacturer that famously installed anti-suicide nets for it's worker, maybe some time away from the factory would be a good thing?

They never had high suicide rates so no.

In 2010, over 10 workers threw themselves from the building to their death. I guess that's not high enough for you?

That's not a useful rate until you factor in population.

"High suicide rate" is a relative term, and does not describe foxconn.

Specifically, the baseline China rate is either 100 or 220 per million per year depending on source. Foxconn had about 14 suicides that year out of about a million workers (or about half a million at the relevant factories? I'm not exactly sure.) That's an impressively low rate. And for reference the US rate is about 100-140 per million per year.

Again, we're talking about a factory that beats its workers[0], faces them down in riots[1], hasn't paid wages on multiple occasions[2], negotiates against mass-worker suicide pacts[3], forces employees into overtime to fatal extremes[4] and blackmails the families of their workers[5].

Maybe, just maybe, giving authoritarian autonomy to a factory complex full of human workers is not a good idea.

[0] https://web.archive.org/web/20101009065851/http://shanghaiis...

[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-09-26/foxconn-w...

[2] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2012/mar/29/apple-fox..., https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/24/business/foxconn-offer-protes...

[3] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/900698...

[4] https://archive.is/gT0dZ

[5] https://www.reuters.com/article/china-foxconn-trial/family-o...

Cool I didn't say anything about whether they are good or should have autonomy, I said the suicide rate wasn't high.

Ok. I'll defer your attention to the mass suicide threat and move on then.

Even if you go to the hypothetical extreme of pretending every single one those people committed suicide, it still doesn't give them a high suicide rate overall...

So, the nets work? ;)

You can't automate installing ram, or a bunch of other things.

Electronics will get more expensive.

Maybe that's not only ok, but actually desirable. More expensive electronics might help reduce ewaste (which is VERY hazardous in aggregate) and push manufacturers to go back to repairable and upgradeable designs.

I don't think abusing your employees is ever okay.

If the only reason we haven't fully automated something is because we can force 6 people to live in a 100ft apartment then there is something pretty fucked up.

Is that really going to cost $2500 though? Sounds like a massive deal-breaker to me.

Apple is giving me a Macbook Pro with solid hardware for an equivalent amount of money that I can always count on for everything I do, and still set it for ~40% of the value 5+ years later.

For this you don't need to sell it 5+ years down the road—you pop in a new mainboard with the latest processor, for much less than a new laptop would cost, and off you go.

And then you could sell or repurpose the old mainboard. There are 3D-printable enclosures that you could use to make it an HTPC. Really cool stuff

Sure, the initial upfront cost will be high. But I think that the trade off in the longer term will be worth it.

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