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Comment by HeckFeck | Hacker News Reader

If you want to help someone, you'll put in some effort to find out what said person/group actually needs. Evidently the aforesaid volunteers did nothing of the sort, so I'll maintain my cynicism.

If I say that I really care for the plight of conjoined twin myslexia sufferers, but just throw a big parade to raise awareness of them, while never asking the sufferers what they actually would like, what does that say about me? Ref: the Nurse Gollum episode of South Park.

As an aside, if you've ever had people tell you they really care for you yet they never put any effort into communication/empathy/understanding, you'll recognise this pattern as the same. Basically, charlatans. They want the praise of doing good without any of the effort or risks.

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Those volunteers took the wrong approach, since they didn’t ask the people they were trying to help, what help they actually needed. But in my experience, the group they were targeting is very difficult to productively converse about their needs with.

People with mental health issues oftentimes don’t know what their problem is or how they can be helped. Sometimes they can’t conceive of solutions outside their current mental space or understanding. Additionally, sometimes simply asking them what amounts to “I noticed something wrong with you and I’d like to help” exacerbates the feeling of “something is wrong with me” rather than “I’d like to help”.

The above is true for more issues than just mental health issues, as well. I definitely support asking people what they need and tailoring solutions to their individual or group needs, but it’s not as easy as your post makes it sound.

If you or others have advice regarding specifically how to help people struggling with mental health, I’d love to hear it. I have a lot of loved ones who have struggled or are struggling with mental health issues, and I haven’t found any approach which does work.

I know many people with mental health issues (including myself), but my sample isn't terribly generalizable as they're either from my family or my wife's family. For me personally, the scenarios I've opened up in are, without exception, intimate. The absolute maximum has probably been 5 people in conversation, and it has always been in scenarios where time feels plentiful. It also helps tremendously if others break the ice, though that's not always a requirement.

For these volunteers that are trying to improve the mood of those struggling with no prior credibility or relationship, my best guess would have been organizing something like a series of cafes where people can come and pet consenting animals. Have volunteers be available for conversation, but defer agency in that process to participants. I would consider things like have a rotation of volunteers semi-clandestinely engage in alone time with the animals so that socially anxious participants don't feel overly conspicuous if they also need to be alone. I might also have some PPE on-hand for those especially anxious about hygiene. I'd probably look a bunch of stuff up to see what accommodations are helpful to people of various mental struggles, figure out a subset that seems plausible and give it a shot. That's my best guess.

Oof. Whilst I get where you're coming from, I don't think it's evident at all.

I spent my time at university doing way less (drinking mostly). These folk actually had to make a decision to give up their time for something more than themselves. They found something that a) probably gave them a sense of purpose and b) they thought was helping.

I'd assume for those involved someone told them "this is our plan, this will help people, here's what you need to do." Because they didn't talk to those suffering, or go away and research it doesn't mean they didn't think it was helpful, even if it was misdirected help.

> If you want to help someone, ...

The difference in interpretation is that one is about actually helping, while the other is about having an earnest desire to help and taking action which may not actually help or possibly be detrimental.

"Cynical villainization of good faith effort" is a great way to describe many South Park episodes, in fact.

When the road to hell is paved with good intentions, it's not cynical to point out where the road is going.

Is that accurate though? Standing on a street and yelling at people actually requires effort, and arguably some risk.

It seems more likely that a lot of these people actually do want to help others but simply didn’t consider the possibility that what seemed helpful to them wouldn’t be. You can want to help someone without being good at it.

The thing is that it's not just "not helpful", it's actually actively harmful in some cases.

It requires effort but less than trying to understand how you could help them, so the point still stands. And even though they might genuinely help others, it’s important to educate people to stop doing it this way, as it can be more harmful than doing nothing.

> You can want to help someone without being good at it.

Some kind of help is the kind of help we all can do without. I wouldn't encourage a well-meaning student to do my surgery if a gruff-looking surgeon who has taken their Hippo is around. Same goes with getting my car repaired, or discussing touchy topics like depression. It's fine if you want to help, but I'd rather you didn't if you have no idea what you're doing.

Another brief anecdote: my high school growing up had been hit by a wave of bullying that left the staff extremely insecure about the way they handle mental health. So one year I showed up to school and they had a photo of every student in the halls on the wall, with enormous posters declaring "You are Loved" and other pithy quotes. Needless to say, 4 weeks later those same halls were utterly vandalized, with the posters tattered, threats scrawled under people's faces in Sharpie and some taken down entirely (often by bullying victims themselves). The administration didn't look before they leaped, and ended up using their authority to shoot themselves in the foot.

The intention matters little in these cases, and the consequences much. It is exactly the empty and superficial act of describing how much you care while remaining oblivious to their human needs and wants that makes the act so harmful. The obvious lack of care that is demonstrated while someone pats themselves on the back in that way deepens the feelings of social isolation and helplessness that caused the issue in the first place.

Shouting nice things at random groups of people is idiotic, and borderline insulting. A bit like throwing money in the general direction of Africa to help the starving. Whatever someone is going through, relating to them as individuals is a good first step.

It doesn't matter that it requires effort. You don't get a gold star in these scenarios simply for putting in effort. If you didn't spend any time thinking about what someone in these scenarios might truly NEED, you're at best wasting everyone's time, and at worst doing harm to those you're intending to help.

If you saw someone broken down on the side of the highway, and decided you would "help" by pulling over and rummaging around in their engine bay with a cheery attitude, then by your metric this is fine because it requires effort and arguably some risk. Who wouldn't want this kind of help, right?

I think you are a bit harsh.

You are thinking like an engineer, you analyze the problem, and try to find the most efficient solution. It is also my line of thought.

But many people don't think like that. They value action and instinct above thinking and planning, and to be fair, sometimes, it is for the best. But sometimes, they do counter productive things that are infuriating for people with the mindset of an engineer.

It doesn't mean they are not good people. They can be the kind who will run to save you while the engineer type will be stuck there thinking about the best course of action. I think society needs both.

> It doesn't mean they are not good people.

It doesn't mean they're good people either. I am having a hard time believing that a person who would come up with such an idea is well meaning.

Sounds like attempt to collect points for "trying to help"

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