Comment by xiaoma | Hacker News Reader

Comment by xiaoma | Hacker News Reader

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I really don't understand where the author is coming from on this:

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"One of the floor’s tenants attempted to solve this problem by posting passive-aggressive notes on the paper-towel dispenser.

(Image of a paper with "Please discard paper towels into wastebasket." written on it)

The signs never worked. Instead, they just annoyed and angered people. Some people even threw more paper towels on the floor because they didn’t like the condescending way they were being instructed.

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That message is anything but passive-aggressive. It's direct, reasonable and courteous. It's also very ordinary and I've seen signs like it in various public restrooms, train stations, subway stations and other areas. If someone is actually angered by this kind of sign and decides to litter more as a response, they're probably not a very easy person to get along with.

In many places, such as Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and much of east Asia, this problem is solved via fines. Over time the fines even change social norms about littering and the situation improves in areas without the fines. The analogy to copyright is pretty weak. Many places with more civilized norms in terms of litter really don't care about copyright infringement to the extent that English-speaking countries do. Copyright behavior has also been very resistant to being altered by fines.

That message is anything but passive-aggressive. It's direct, reasonable and courteous.

It's easily possible to interpret it as "we know we're inconveniencing you, and we don't care".

The point is, whatever we think about the litterers, the note is not going to change it. Yes, you can go draconian and put cameras in toilets. Or you can adapt to those people at little cost (in this case, of course — if they drop cigarette butts on the street the situation is very different). Instead, both sides here engage in passive-agressive behavior. The litterers litter, instead of asking the management to move the trash can. The management puts up notices, instead of moving the trash can (it's pretty easy to guess why there's litter). Both sides are trying to prove a point instead of getting things done.

Besides, there really should be a trash can near the door.

> Many places with more civilized norms in terms of litter really don't care about copyright infringement to the extent that English-speaking countries do.

Maybe that's because English-speaking countries produce the majority of the media content that the superior littering cultures want to consume. No surprise that the producers care more about copyright infringement than the consumers.

It's passive-aggressive, because it doesn't directly address the problem.

A direct message would have been at the door and said: “Please stop throwing paper on the floor, there's a wastebasket on the other side of the room”.

(I also suspect that the reaction would have been at least somewhat more positive.)

I disagree.

"Please discard paper towels into wastebasket" is direct and specifies exactly what kind of behavior is desired. Your example doesn't do that. It says there is a wastebasket, but the only request is not to throw paper on the floor. It could be satisfied by leaving the wet paper towels on the sink, leaving them draped on the door handle or slapping them on the wall. (How's that for passive-aggressive!)

The original message is both shorter and clearer. It's both pro-active and respectful. Getting angry at the notice and littering to show you won't tolerate "condescension" is just being a dick.

I'm glad you see this rationally. I don't understand at all how people see this as condescending. Why is it that in our society, people are offended by being asked to behave in an adult manner?

What irks me is that everyone thinks they're psychologists so they throw around clinical terms like "passive aggressive" which they have right to use. No more so than a layperson trying to sound intelligent by using terms like "exponential complexity"...

In my mind, 'being asked to behave in an adult manner', is condescending. I am not excusing the people who litter, they could still use paper to open the door and then dispose of it elsewhere.

In regard to the article, my take-away from it is that all the media industry needs to do to lessen piracy, is make their content easier to access legally - not make it more difficult.

If you need to be told to put trash in a trash basket, you deserve to be condescended to. If you don't want to be treated like a child, don't act like a child.

I'm not sure whether you're just arguing or genuinely of this opinion.

Whichever the case, I hope you can accept that a great number of people, when in the described situation, will not think the message “pro-active and respectful”. Is their dickish response justified? No, but it is what it is.

I genuinely don't think it's passive aggressive. "Please throw trash in the waste bin" is a very standard message.

However, the general idea of reducing the friction involved with following the rules is good. Having laws (such as those related to "piracy") that are openly ignored has a corrosive effect on a society's respect for the law in general. For the most part, I agree with Larry Lessig's comments on that matter.

Perhaps it's not "passive aggressive" in terms of the DSM criteria but it's certainly not constructive:

1. it asserts authority ("right") rather directly addressing the underlying issue (the concerns the users of the bathroom have with hygiene and "pragmatic" efficiency)

2. it ends with the line, "Thank you for your co-operation", which is offensive and condescending because the author of the sign expects co-operation and consideration without offering any in turn because they are "right" (when clearly the target of the message doesn't care what's "right")

Although I think this is a bit of an apocryphal anecdote, I presume this is happening in a professional setting. Messages of this type require a bit more tact than what you're suggesting.

I think you are missing the point xioma, you are focusing on the use of grammar instead of the essence of the entire post. Anyways you make a valid point nonetheless.

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