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Comment by samtho | Hacker News Reader

The library is one of the last places where you can exist without the expectation of buying something. I’m not some anti-capitalist at all, but I do recognize the role in which public facilities like the library play. Ideally, they provide a space essential for free and open access, within in a local community, free at the point of delivery.

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That's a pretty brilliant observation. On nice days, public parks look similar to the library (and increasingly have the same vagrancy and drug problems, ha!). But public parks don't need staff like a library so it's less obvious who's job it should be to kick everyone out at night.

I've seen that observation a lot, the oldest expression of it I can find (with the key phrase "expectation of buying something") is from this union publication in July 2018:

> A library is one of the last truly public spaces, where you can go to get out of the elements or meet with people without the expectation of buying something.

[0] https://www.afscme.org/blog/camden-county-library-workers-ra...

I go to state and national parks all the time. You don't really see vagrancy problems in the majority of them, but they all have park rangers whose job it is to police that. Many parks, of course, let you camp overnight up to two weeks at a time.

This is about city parks.

I also go to city parks all the time. You don't get these problems outside of the major cities.

Interesting you should say that, because as a British person I have never encountered a public park in which one is not allowed to be at night.

Public parks of course need some staff, but maybe they would be better if they didn't have them: the two gardeners for my local public park have been nicknamed 'Rack' and 'Ruin' due to their extreme approach to dead-heading..!

The Royal parks in London generally close at night. Interestingly some of the parks ar "commons" as in common land and so can't be closed!

I've seen this notion a few times, but I think it bares some scrutiny.

What places used to exist that no longer do where you can exist without the expectation of buying something?

Thinking about it, libraries are unusual in that they have no cost at all to enter. Top of my head only religious buildings seem to be similar in that regards.

There's quite a lot of options as far as no expectations to buy anything, but you need to pay some kind of fee - sport's centres, clubs that sort of thing. (One might argue they often contain a shop/cafe, but I'd argue you don't go there to use those, and they are very optional)

You can visit lots of commercial spaces without buying something as long as you're polite and not smelly.

I've found this to be true of many Starbucks locations. I usually do buy/drink a tea/coffee or two, but have never felt any pressure to keep buying. It might be an unwritten/unknown policy to allow this. I recall reading that Starbucks intentionally serves as a kind of 'third place'. Here's one[0] I just googled.

[0] https://stories.starbucks.com/stories/2022/reimagining-the-t...

But the expectation that you will buy something is still there.

Some won’t even let you use the bathroom if you’re not buying stuff.

No, unless you're using "expectation" in a way that significantly differs from the common meaning. Browsing without buying is extremely common and expected.

Browsing would imply that you're looking for things to purchase, wouldn't it?

Yeah, but that does not imply you will find what you're looking for, or that you want to buy it immediately (e.g. you have something else afterwards where it would be inconvenient to carry what you bought and prefer coming back another day).

No, it's a perfectly valid outcome to not buy something.

I can go and wander and look at the wares. But if I were to go to a Dick's Sporting Goods with some friends, plop down in an aisle, and start playing a board game they'll probably ask me to leave.

I think you’d be surprised what you can get away with if you’re really pleasant and don’t bother anyone. Just act like playing board games in the aisle is perfectly normal and smile and wave at people.

There seem to be a lot of people in this thread who have never been to a store, or cannot imagine being pleasant. If you're not a jerk, people will be quite patient! And if you are asked to leave, that's also not terrible! You can go somewhere else. There's a huge, quantifiable gulf between setting up a homeless encampment in a space and a normalish person just hanging out.

Yeah, but if you did this at a Starbucks or mall food court, you probably would not be asked to leave. File that under "being polite."

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