He put in an appearance for about an hour, ignored all the most upvoted questions, then disappeared.
He put in an appearance for about an hour, ignored all the most upvoted questions, then disappeared.
You have to assume that the leadership team is not completely inept and that there must be a valid, urgent reason for willingly taking so much heat before the IPO.
What could it possibly be?
It’s just normal humanity stupidity and greed, and these aren’t like head of the class intellects, it’s just boring people who love money and status and get no satisfaction from helping others.
The problem with Tech is that they are the primary beneficial of hyper growth with zero interest rate era and Smartphone revolution. In the space of 10+ years tech have grown from an unthinkable Trillion dollar market cap to now we have a single company with close to 3 trillion, two other company with close to 2 trillion and other rushing to trillion dollar club. And this is unlike previous bubble they have actual profits and balance sheet for their market valuation.
People working in tech, especially within BigTech are not only partly dictating the world and media's attention, they are also so out of touch they became aristocracy in the old era.
Thus begins your decline and the gamble for who gets stuck holding the bag.
A VP who oversaw a billion being set on fire will still be hired as a VP at the next company as long as that money was burned on the tech trend of the moment.
Maybe more: "he's trying to be at the top in business/value extraction/rent seeking"
So we gathered a lot of information, as much of it as possible directly from management itself. We have indeed found information that explains some managerial decisions, but so far only of the variety that have benefited individual managers themselves, and always with negative consequences for the majority of others.
However, the overwhelming majority of what we consider peculiar (up to catastrophic) decisions are due to a combination of hubris, impostor syndrome and absolute incompetence. In one case where we could least explain the decisions at first, a manager under the influence of alcohol virtually admitted that they were not only aware of their own incompetence, but that they intentionally got rid of overly competent people so that they wouldn't make them look so bad. It's a mess.
By taking a huge jump to early on and shitting on volunteers/3rd party app developers, they lost what little trust they had. Doubly sad that the same playbook played out with Digg and showed reddit exactly what not to do.
Now as they ramp up to an IPO, 3rd party clients are seen as a liability, not an asset.
They view anyone that complains as a vocal minority, the my don’t believe their MAU numbers will change in any meaningful way.
If anything, all the press around it just raises Reddits profile.
That’s my take on what’s going on, but I have no insider knowledge so I’m just guessing :-)
the problem is that the "troublemakers" are the cool kids that make the site interesting, so it's a bit like gentrification kids out the cool folks that made the place interesting in a first bit
In the PC world, the power users could graduate into developers and make apps to share with everyone. In the Reddit world, the power users are people who are interested in farming for karma, the people who stake out claims as moderators, the people who respond to tons of AITA / legaladvice / relationships posts.
When I hear someone ranting, pissed off, about the latest Windows or macOS update, or systemd, it’s often because they use computers to get work done, and having the tech stack change under your feet makes it hard to get work done. Broad sense of the word “work” here, when I say “get work done”.
Nobody’s getting work done on Reddit, it’s a time drain from other stuff we could be doing. (Like, not nobody nobody, just nobody.)
The best places on reddit are good dude to stringent moderation.
They are all going dark in response. This will remove all quality from Reddit and finally turn it fully into a meme and porn dump.
In recent years I have seen more and more people comment here that they search reddit rather than the web when they want to get decent results. I can absolutely imagine that this could end relatively soon, and whether a "meme and porn" version of reddit is really worth more than a "central platform of all niche forums for all topics" reddit remains to be seen.... The fact that there have been many "meme and porn" platforms that came and went in the past makes me question that...
The people who make Reddit interesting are, IMO, the content creators and the people who answer questions. The content creators are spending most of their time off-Reddit, working on projects. The people answering questions are browsing /new on a few subreddits, killing time, and watching a mostly unmoderated stream of posts.
The moderation rules for individual subreddits are usually annoying—things like karma minimums, minimum ages, and sometimes a bunch of weird rules about what you can post and how you can post it. Rules against self-promotion.
Risk is that if they kick out the "creators" by making the apps unattractive they might lose a lot of content for the lurkers.
But they should have statistics to see how many are using apps and how many of the most hit posts are written by app users ... if they didn't run such an analysis: their bad.
Contrast this to the official site/app, which are instead designed to keep you jumping from post to post without dwelling for too long, but are also designed to sell junk like NFT avatars.
Reddit might continue on with business as usual after the API rate change goes into effect, but I believe the average quality of content and comments (which was already trending lower) will fall through the floor. There's no incentive for invested users who put more thought and effort into their posts to stick around.
Perhaps in the US. There is another 96% of humanity left to go so a little bit of additional growth should be feasible
On the contrary, I really resonated with the top response to one of his replies:
https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/145bram/comment/jnk...
Elsewhere I've seen people complaining that one of his responses started with "A:" so he was "obviously just copy-pasting rather than actually answering".
https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/146h9d6/reddits...
(E to put the last part in quotes)
The really impressive thing is... if you follow a user profile link to a comment and vote, the vote doesn't count.
And it was really hard to see spez's comments without following them from his profile, because they were so downvoted.
So I don't even know how you get down to -1000 on comments.
I've been a Reddit user for a while, but I never knew this. I tried doing a quick search, but it dates back to 2015 when it seems they were actually disabled all together from the profile page [0].
[0] https://www.reddit.com/r/help/comments/2nzzhg/if_i_go_throug...
So if they look at their analytics later, they will probably discover the comforting fact that only people on 3rd party clients were downvoting the CEO.
By not going into the database and flipping the sign on that integer.
And before anyone says I'm memeing or otherwise attacking spez without cause: Remember, this is spez. He admitted to directly modifying the database to edit comments of people critical of him once upon a time. He called forth this level of distrust himself.
It'd be a massive fuck you to the community, but how would that be different to what's been going on the last few months?
I'm guessing the company will be like an abusive partner saying "we're in control, you can leave, but we know you won't."
Trying to find a bunch of new mods will probably be an issue. Right now there isn't _too much_ complaining about mods. It's a very fine balance and replacing a bunch of existing ones with new ones might cause mayhem.
reddit got lucky - right place, right time, and locked in a strong enough network effect to stay alive despite the best efforts of their leadership. Look at their atrocious UI. The clumsy desperate attempts to drive users to an app. The boneheaded copycat features that never quite work, or are just downright baffling.
In an alternate world a smaller team would have focused on site reliability, mod tools, and a small set of features that made sense. Use third party ad tools until, or if, you get a better homegrown solution. With this route reddit would have been profitable and probably good. Instead...
So, does the heat matter?
I was thinking more of Victoria Taylor, where sure, the community did get rid of Ellen Pao, but they didn't get back AMAs and got an even less considerate and professional CEO.
That wasn’t “skepticism” - it was outright denial of high-school-level biology facts, and it all gets worse from there.
> commercially pretty easy
I doubt it’s that easy - considering Facebook’s inaction.
"After a controversial 2010 redesign and the departure of co-founders Jay Adelson and Kevin Rose, in July 2012 Digg was sold in three parts: the Digg brand, website, and technology were sold to Betaworks for an estimated $500,000;[9] 15 staff were transferred to The Washington Post Company's "SocialCode" for a reported $12 million; and a suite of patents was sold to LinkedIn for about $4 million."
Benefit of the doubt only stretches so far.
What is the platform even worth if it is riddled with bots like Twitter? Who are companies even advertising towards? Hey backend server "207fef50-b354-4c85-8865-f56f8313cd2c" look at these new electric BBQ offers!
Perhaps he's trying to pull a Nuclear Gandhi[1] and go 'deep' enough to underflow to being extremely positive?
People keep talking about an AMA session, but there was none. Not every self post on reddit is an AMA session, and I don't think it's fair to call his post one and attack it on that basis.
“ Reddit CEO, u/spez, will be here tomorrow to host an AMA about the latest API updates, including accessibility, mod bots, and third-party mod tools. “
Sometimes I feel the current situation is exactly what we (reddit users) deserve. Like, we chose to continue using this website even when we knew the leadership is piece of shit. What else did we expect?
Unfortunately things, as a super general term, don't work properly.
Q: How do you address the concerns of users who feel that Reddit has become
increasingly profit-driven and less focused on community engagement?
Spez: We’ll continue to be profit-driven until profits arrive.
Unlike some of the 3P apps, we are not profitable.There is no free lunch. Someone has to pay the bills on hosting, and I'm sure Reddit thought it'd be cheaper to do it themselves at scale than to pay someone as a middleman.
[0] https://www.theverge.com/2019/10/18/20920977/imgur-reddit-ns...
As I recall, it was Reddit who moved away from Imgur, not the reverse.
[0] https://old.reddit.com/r/changelog/comments/4kuk2j/reddit_ch...
[1] https://old.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/7zlyd/my_gift_t...
The original UI works well, and it's great they kept old.reddit. Everything since has been horrible, along with the dark patterns pushing their mobile client. It reminds me of all the craigslist UI redesign posts on hacker news many years ago that completely missed the point.
Reddit has definite value (really important as Google quality declines IMO), and I'd love if they could find a way to sustain without destroying the community... but I'm not optimistic.
I predict the same will happen with reddit. It’ll take awhile for new platforms to mature, and for the good content to leave. But I’d put money on it losing its cultural relevance over the next 5-10 years.
But I count as one of those, and the only time I tap an ad is by accident.
The ads are literally every 3rd slot (for me at least).
What do the advertisers get out of this?
I thought he was absolutely crazy and was going to waste a bunch of money. I was completely and utterly wrong. People were clicking ads and buying his workout plans.
At that point I realized I'm completely out of touch with the majority of social media users.
When I browse the home page all I see is anti-work, anti-capitalism, nuance-less politics, etc.
As people have mentioned, the free money decade is over - users are going to have to start becoming Customers if they want their voices to be listened to.
That would be an improvement to the current "free" platforms that users pay for with their data, or attention to psychologically manipulative content. The web should definitely adopt the business-customer model, and cut out the leechy middlemen.
Going a step further, the business should happen not with a centralized platform, but with web hosters, infrastructure companies, and ultimately ISPs. The technology for anyone to publish and manage their data already exists, but is not user friendly enough to be accessible to anyone but the technically proficient.
The internet is inherently peer-to-peer. Service silos only exist because user-friendly tools are made for consumers rather than publishers, and the easiest way for users to publish content is via a 3rd party. We have user-friendly web _browsers_, but web servers are still reserved for the technically proficient. There's a lot of work needed in this area, but all the building blocks already exist.
In some cases the current platform design is totally absurd: like linkedin (or github or azure) thus microsoft having insider knowledge about anything that happens in the digital space.
This is basically down to society being largely tech illiterate and various people taking enormous advantage of that.
You can also see in the proposal that phase 2 considered a "universal authorship" goal, and has a rough draft of what a user-friendly publishing interface could be, but it was far too vague, and to my knowledge this phase never came to pass.
As a result of this, companies like GeoCities and Angelfire popped up to fill the void of what the web lacked, and later on social media platforms served the same purpose. Advertisers noticed early on a very lucrative opportunity, and tech giants were built to support them. ISPs noticed that the demand was only for downloading content, so they never bothered to build the infrastructure needed to also serve content, and most internet connections were asymmetrical. And, so, here we are.
To be fair, there have been some attempts to make publishing easier. I think the best attempt was Opera's Unite in 2009. But by then, it was too little, too late, and Opera being Opera, it never gained traction. BitTorrent is a big one, but it's only a protocol, so it should be a building block of whatever the solution is.
Now we have all these distributed projects, web3, etc., but they're still unusable by the average internet user. A part of the problem is education, sure, but I reckon that the average internet user has been conditioned to believe that all these mainstream platforms _are_ the internet. So even if friendly publishing tools existed, and users had the knowledge to use them, they would still choose to use the centralized platforms. Partly because, unfortunately, most people don't care about their data, privacy, etc., and just want to consume content.
So I don't think any of this will change. Technical users will keep using niche tools, and the mainstream web will keep being centralized and run by advertisers.
yep that asymmetry is deep-seated. but decentralized serving does not need to be extreme. I can imagine e.g. geographically local (e.g. city-level) infrastructure hosting - supported maybe by local taxes like a utility - and people using wordpress enhanced with activitypub.
Between each user doing self-publishing and all users being captive in one gigantic data-mining and humiliatingly abusive platform there are literally billions of options.
> most people don't care about their data, privacy, etc., and just want to consume content
This is something that is repeated a lot (also here on HN) and of course at some very basic level it is true. If the negative impact of current designs was obvious we would not have the nightmare we drifted into.
But it is a rather simplistic take on how things work with technology adoption, regulation of business behavior, markets etc.
E.g. people didn't not care about ozone layer depletion, they were probably completely unaware of it. That's why we have experts and regulators and institutions to advise the general population about what is safe and in their interest. In the case of the ozone layer, laws were passed. Substances were banned. Substitutes invented. The planet and our skin was saved. We moved on to the next existential risk.
The same playbook has repeated countless times. People generally assume that the system works to protect them and that is not a totally wrong assumption. If everybody moved fast and broke things modern society would quickly collapse.
Yet notice that nobody of authority ever warned users not to use these platforms. In fact the opposite. In what is unthinkable and unprecedented collusion, most public sector entities actively advertise them, by being in these platforms, providing links to them etc.
What has happened in this space is that a major social contract has been violated. Politicians, in a combination of ineptitude ("We run ads, senator") and capture have acquiesced to this drift.
This has played out for so long that people who are aware of what is happening are exhausted and defeatist. We should not give up though. This is important stuff.
A few things broke this model.
One is that the web page design tools struggled to incorporate any kind of dynamism or collaboration. They were fine for as long as you had a website with a single author. The moment you wanted to have multiple people working on it simultaneously, or you wanted to add comments / ads / hit counters / guest books, the best you could do was stuff for programmers like PHP and version control systems.
Another is that the visual design tools weren't very good. Dreamweaver was by far the best, but expensive, and it was still amazingly annoying and hard to get a visual design that didn't look like amateur trash.
Yet another is that the web didn't have good tools for thematic design, and figuring out a good site layout was hard, refactoring even harder. Even things as obvious as a consistent navbar were hard because there wasn't good support for static site rendering and HTML doesn't have an include tag. People hacked it up with framesets for a while but that didn't work well either.
Finally, connecting your website address to your ISP meant if you wanted to switch to a better internet offer your website would disappear which was unacceptable, so in practice people wanted independent providers, and they needed to use ads to make money, which in turn meant that you hit the limits of the WYSIWYG editors that didn't really understand ads and which iterated, maybe if you were lucky, once every few years.
Into this void stepped yes, Geocities, but primarily WordPress. It supported dynamic features, it understood ads, it iterated fast, it had decent looking themes, it said "don't bother with organizing stuff, just keep a diary" and all that massively lowered the barrier to entry for web publishing. Later sites like MySpace and Facebook provided a kind of WordPress-lite and gained success from that, Twitter made it even more minimal and gained even more success, and then finally Instagram took away the obligation to even have anything to say at all and had even more success than that.
So the trend here has only partly been about tools. It's clearly not true that people only want to consume content, the entire success of social media and YouTube revolves around the massively huge desire to create and publish. It's done via centralized platforms for the same reason everything else is: they can move fast, they can raise and make money, they can hire the smartest and hardest working people to build them because there's some real chance of reward. Decentralized systems by and large can't do these things.
They were also _much_ less popular. There were millions of GeoCities sites, while FrontPage was a niche tool, even after Microsoft bought it in '96.
Like you said, these tools weren't good enough. They produced a mess of content that was limited in features and difficult to maintain, but more importantly, they were still reserved for a technical audience. You still needed to know what a web host was, how to use FTP, etc. They were woefully insufficient, even compared to publishing services.
> Many ISPs provided a bit of web space for people as part of the default offer.
I'm not sure if "many" is correct. Certainly _some_ did, but the largest ones like AOL and CompuServe in the US didn't, AFAIK.
WordPress came much later when the web was already established. And it was also largely a technical tool.
But WYSIWYG tools shouldn't have existed either. Like publishing services, they are a response to a feature the web didn't have. People certainly have a need to produce content, but the barrier to do so was so high, that most flocked to services like GeoCities, and later social media, to fulfill this need.
If producing content was as easy as consuming it was in the early web, i.e. if we had an analogous tool to the web browser for publishing, the way the web developed and the modern web would've been much different, and arguably for the better. Nontechnical users eventually learned to use the web browser, and they would've learned the web "creator" as well.
Unfortunately that opportunity has passed, and we can't re-educate people to use a different web than the one they're already used to. At least I'm pessimistic that any of these decentralized projects will gain any mainstream traction.
> It's done via centralized platforms for the same reason everything else is: they can move fast, they can raise and make money, they can hire the smartest and hardest working people to build them because there's some real chance of reward.
None of these are advantages. Centralized platforms _require_ these things because running a centralized service at scale is incredibly complex. Most of the problems these platforms deal with is precisely because of the complexity of scale.
Yet if the web model reused the inherent decentralized model of the internet, scaling a centralized service wouldn't be a problem. Protocols like BitTorrent have solved content distribution that doesn't rely on a centralized server. Had this model been adopted from the start, none of the modern centralized platforms would have a need to exist.
This doesnt ring true. The web becomes more disruptable by the day. Familiarity with various aspects of technology is diffusing in various parts of society. The hypes (crypto, AI etc) are conditioning people to accept that "stuff is happening". They wont switch for another social platform. They may not wear goggles in the billions. But they will try tangible proposals.
The real problem is that there is no assurance the "disruption" will a positive one.
No matter how bad we think about the situation somebody can find a way to make it worse.
Finally, it is nice. Back to the good old days where things have to at least pass the common sense test.
And then you "blame" the 3rd party apps?
Sounds like a basic failure of housekeeping. But, but let's blame "remote work" or something like that, yeah
I think his lack of self reflection rivals that of Triplebyte's CEO when they forced public profiles on people.
People understand when force is being used against them rather than persuasion, and nobody likes to feel like force is being used against them. I am very happy to see collective force being leveraged towards someone in a position of power.
I think Spez hasn't explored the idea that people value their anonymity, so attaching a credit card to an "anonymous" account isn't going to be popular. If reddit showed a desire to be frugal and fired all these awful dark pattern implementing UX devs who are devoid of professional ethics, and was ok breaking even instead of making money. I would strongly consider a 3-5 dollar a month donation not associated with an account. But they would have to trust the community enough to be somewhat open with their books.
Of course the real problem here is likely a violation of fiduciary duties to their investors, although given how things are turning out, he may already be liable.
The company hoping to IPO too… Heck, I’ve been a user for a decade, I would have bought some shares. They could have made it super interesting for retail.
Absolutely not going to happen now, since we have a better sense for how the CEO handles difficult situations. I can only imagine the shitshow it must be internally with leadership like that.
I suspect the direction to employ dark patterns comes from the top.
You are a low value user to them. Why would they remove the thing that gets people looking at more ads? Most people don't pay for subscriptions if they don't have to, and the 3-5 dollars you'd pay per month is really nothing to them. People live in a tech and power user bubble not understanding that the vast majority of Reddit's 500 million user per month base simply do not give a shit about any of the drama that's happening and will continue to see ads.
Also pretty damning they can’t make a profit where others can off their data lol
I agree that Reddit's failure to convert their enormous reach into profit is a failure, I don't agree that this particular thing is damning. I'll bet if you pooled the revenue of every third party app it still wouldn't begin to cover Reddit's overall costs.
Which, honestly is great insight into the fragile mind of a man manchild lucky enough that their startup happens to be very visible to.the public eye.
1. It's entirely possible they could make more money monetizing the highly engaged users that use mobile apps through ads than those apps make directly.
2. Their cost structure is higher than the apps since they need to own and manage the backend and promote the overall Reddit branding.
This level of friction means I've never voted in a Reddit poll unless I was on a computer, and many other 3rd party app users probably act similarly.
I wish I had known about the Apollo app before all this drama. I would have gladly paid because the official mobile and iPad apps are atrocious.
Well, the argument is that it at least partially because they have a free/cheap API. And they're willing to stake a lot on betting that changing this will pay off.
https://old.reddit.com/r/Save3rdPartyApps/comments/145bxmi/c...
Talk about trying to rewrite history.
He also deleted some of his comments seconds after posting :)
This is pretty typical of AMA's from widely known people. It's nothing more than marketing. AMA do not translate to quality or quantity of answers, only questions.