It's mostly abduction—the best explanation for the available evidence—which wouldn't fly in the hard sciences, but it's all that's available to archeologists and ancient historians. If your heuristic is "hard proof or bullshit," you'll inevitably reject everything that comes out of these fields. (also, history isn't any sort of science, soft or otherwise; it's a branch of the humanities).
But, in any given field, the job is to sort the probable propositions from the improbable.
The dialectic, the article establishes, amongst historians has been:
Yes, there was sacrifice, the greeks/etc. said so
No, there wasn't, we believe propaganda too readily
Yes, there was, multiple sources (incl. archeology) now corroborate
I agree with your scepticism about the "speculative sciences" insofar as these speculations should determine high-risk policies today. But the job of "scientific history" is to produce better interpretations than those "floating around in popular folk history".I imagine this counts.
The job is also to assert no conclusion when appropriate. That has not happened here.
I also know what the history books and the state says, namely that no such thing happened.
In fact this happened in essentially every town, all but the smallest, in Northwest Europe. There were local differences. In some cities kids got executed because of who their parents were. Sometimes the Nazi soldiers were gone, people in hiding came out, and the local government turned out to have internalized Nazi ideology ... and executed them. Mostly the government never looked at it's own role in what happened, and CERTAINLY never did anything to return possessions of deported people, mostly but certainly not exclusively Jews. Sometimes opportunists used the opportunity to execute local rich families or rival farmers and confiscate their possessions. In another relatively famous story, the local police commander knew that civil servants and things like notaries, but also some youth services related clergy, were cooperating with the Nazi government ... and executed them. In some places it even came to a battle between pro- and anti-Nazi forces (yes, after liberation).
You will find some reference to some of what happened in history books about the South Part of the Netherlands, but this happened everywhere. The government denies it happened in my hometown, and in fact denies it happened anywhere in the country. A general amnesty was declared by the Americans some months later, mostly out of total desperation that they were losing everyone, and that it needed to stop and instead they'd do the Nuremberg trials, which were limited to the worst of the worst, and exclusively people from the actual Nazi party.
Of course, all the European governments did all decide they were never going to repay or return anything that was stolen, not to Jews, not to those rich families, not to the Church, nothing. War pensions were awarded to survivors of the camps, the same or similar to what was awarded to soldiers.
Western European Governments just wanted control, and let murders happen, provided official documents "confirming" possessions of goods stolen through massacres, if only they were allowed to stay in power.
This included falsifying birth certificates for a LOT of children where, shall we say, parental responsibilities were redistributed. This practice would continue for decades after the war ended.
There is a trove of independent historic stories and tales about child sacrifice in Carthage from Plutarch, Plato and even the Bible. In some sense I think it would more obvious than not to assume that child sacrifice did take place.
That sort of evidence isn’t nothing, but _in itself_ you probably need to be very careful with it.
The Greeks had no issue describing the bizarre Etruscan custom of no exposing “excess” female infants and treating the more or less equally to boys.
Killing infants or even young children was really not a big deal in the ancient word. Viewing it as some act of extreme evil is mainly a Christian thing…
Why? That’s more evidence than we have for many other things we ‘know’ about the ancient world. We often have just a single source written down by somebody less reliable than Plutarch or Plato.
I mean we’d find something corroborated by two ancients authors sufficient for most other events which weren’t as controversial (purely from a modern perspective)
"In some cases, however, the inscriptions make explicit reference to human victims, with expressions such as »zrm»ˇs(t), (a person who has not yet reached maturity) and mlk b–l (an offering of a citizen); in the Hellenistic period the phrase mlk »dm (human offering) is found. An interpretation of these construct phrases as ‘offering by a citizen/human’ rather than ‘offering of a citizen/human’ must be ruled out by the fact that the phrase mlk »mr is also found at both Cirta and Carthage: ‘offering of a sheep’ (Amadasi Guzzo 2007–2008: 350)."
So? Historic stories and tales from a time when those things weren't written down but handed orally from generation to generation are generally far removed from the truth.
After all, even in an age where almost everything is written down we still battle to separate baseless accusations from substantiated facts.
Why do you think they weren’t written done? Carthage and many other from which we have no surviving texts were highly literate societies and there is no reason to think that Greek or Roman historians did not use those sources.
Not a thing to debate. Sure infant mortality was bad back then but not that bad. And no wanted, loved child got stuffed into a hole chipped in the sod back of the brothel.
The "soft sciences" are harder (more difficult) to do than the "hard" sciences in many ways.
Less evidence just laying about just waiting to be tested (archaeology, ancient history), non-deterministic subjects (humans), not easily reproducible environments (society). Quantum mechanics has it easy in comparison.
Is it any surprise that the consensus goes back and form a few times.
Even when the hard scientists have something 'simple' to study like the deterministic, macro-scale universe they still get it wrong: how long was the Big Bang Theory not taking seriously?
Especially because the stakes are so much lower. Ancient Carthage really does not matter. The ancient world is full of compelling stories, but ultimately they are just that. Whether Carthaginians sacrificed babies does not matter to the modern world at all.
Also it’s not like killing infants was a big deal for the Greeks. There were even a bit shocked by their perceived lack of female infanticide in the Etruscan society.
There was no love lost between the Jews and Romans. The civilizations developed independently, and the survival of Judaism required rejection of the Roman world view in most things.
It was really only after the 1970s that academia pushed the no child sacrifice in Carthage narrative. If it’s the modern humanities department that you have a problem with, then the child sacrifice denial is an innovation created by that system to begin with.
On the other hand you have... what? Are there any surviving ancient claims of the Carthaginians being wrongly slandered with this claim? What is your reason for assuming they did not? Innocent until proven guilty? It's not a court, and by that standard you might as well declare any infamous ancient person innocent since the hard evidence is long gone and none of the claimed witnesses can be cross examined. A modern court couldn't convict Genghis Khan of mass murder and war crimes in absentia, all the remaining evidence against that man is hearsay at best, but I don't think that's a reason to assume he was innocent.
Maybe it's an appeal to the fundamental goodness of human nature? That the Carthaginians are assumed to be innocent because what they're accused of goes against intrinsic human nature? Surely not; human nature includes the capacity for all manner of brutality; proven in the modern era.
> A lot of things are claimed by researchers in the soft sciences, and I take all of it with a grain of salt
The "soft sciences" have a strong left-wing bias in general (c.f. Haidt), and if anything, the tendency would be to want to downplay the atrocities perpetrated by non-whites, so your skepticism seems misdirected.
"As the relationships between scientific practice and social, archaeological and historical interpretations continue to be debated in the discipline at large (McGovern 1995; Jones 2001; Knapp 2002), it should perhaps not come as a surprise that we insist that it is critical that all types or ‘genres’ of evidence be taken into account in relation to the tophets as both a historical phenomenon and a series of archaeological contexts. We all have to work within the limits of our own expertise, whether as scientists, archaeologists, philologists or epigraphers, but we should also strive in the humanities as much as in the sciences to apply the highest standards of academic rigour, without preconceptions, in order to formulate falsifiable hypotheses and interpretations that take into account the full range of available sources—however strange we may find the results..."
I don't know, that sounds like a pretty good "understanding of the scientific process". (Admittedly, I'm just an astrophysicist, so maybe I don't understand "the scientific process".)
Honestly this is a thin critique indeed. Social sciences are difficult precisely because they focus on phenomena with multi-factorial causes. Simple, high confidence, predictive theories are rare in psychology, sociology, anthropology etc, not because social scientists are committing a 'hoax'. In part because the factors impacting individual and collective behaviour are profoundly complex. And also because experimentalism in the social world is ethically, practically and epistemically fraught. We can't easily experiment on people or societies, and we can't stand as independent observers of phenomena of which we are part. We can develop hypotheses, develop experiments which attempt to falsify our null hypothesis, triangulate evidence from different observations and so on. We can model, observe, and infer. Over time we can develop frameworks that are measurably useful - from CBT to behavioural economics. But none of this is easy or definitive.
I note how common this perspective - that social science is some kind of conspiracy of faux expertise - is becoming on Hackernews. And how ironic it is, given that it's rooted in a lack of expertise or even familiarity with the topics critiqued.
This is just one forum in which the growing social skepticism of expertise in general, and science in particular is being articulated.
Furthermore, there is a difference between something being difficult and it being impossible. Many don't realize that astrology was, for many centuries a "real" science, at least as real as modern social science is. It only ended, with some irony, because of the Church. They claimed that astrology's claims to be able to effectively divine the future was heretical and blasphemous, which led to astrology to go from a staple of education and science to being a fringe pseudoscience used for entertainment purposes only. I've no doubt that many practitioners of the time did genuinely feel that what they were doing was simply very difficult. And in fact there probably are some incidental correlations one can draw based on groups across time, so they would be able to show some "real" results, even if the entire field was completely bunk.
[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis#In_psycholo...