Ruby Ridge. Waco.
The FBI hasn't "gone rotten" recently; they've been like this for quite some time.
Ruby Ridge. Waco.
The FBI hasn't "gone rotten" recently; they've been like this for quite some time.
The FBI's history of over-reach and wire-tapping goes back to the 40s and was well-known [even in the mid-80s](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_FBI_controversies).
ATF however tends to just rewrite regulation based on political goals, and then use their new regulations to make people felon's then respond to these new felons with extreme violence.
Ruby Ridge, Waco, and many other famous cases like them were all started by the incompetent ATF not FBI.
ATF routinely violates the civil rights of citizens and an business owners, openly and with out remorse. Personally I think Waco would have turned out far differently if the FBI was the original agency going after them. the FBI only came in after the ATF royally fucked everything up, as usual
Now, one doesn't need to be a fan of far-right or "radical-traditionalist" Catholics to think that this is an absurdity. When is the last time you've heard of a Catholic bombing a plane? The memo itself had not one incident listed, but said that it was a preemptive action (literally no history of violence listed, but they could be!!). Merrick Garland announced after the leak that the memo was atrocious and would be deleted immediately and rushed to declare that the memo did not meet FBI standards and that the FBI would not investigate 1st-amendment protected activities - but nobody's going to face consequences.
And to top it all off, it used the SPLC (Southern Poverty Law Center) as a source and got away with it, even though the SPLC is blocked as a source in the FBI due to bias concerns. So it's OK to use blocked sources if it's the right motive. What the heck...
https://www.wsj.com/articles/fbi-catholics-traditionalists-r...
> After the siege, McLennan County Sheriff Jack Harwell told The Dallas Morning News: "I would have tried to arrest him, and I would've never walked out of there alive. One day there had to be a confrontation with them. They were building for this."
As the saying goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions, and we have had plenty of "good intentions" granting both federal and local police ever increasing power, and ever decreasing accountability.
It's a genuinely unsolved problem from antiquity
Kind of weird to put it here as an indictment of the FBI.
To move it away from political charged event like waco generally the police have a habit today of creating more violent situations, often under the guise of "officer safety" when in reality is "street justice" they are after.
It could totally be possible that 1) death cult did not have death-cult level convictions AND 2) FBI felt like burning a bunch of children alive AND 3) no one has offered good evidence of this
Or it's just a really gnarly situation that did indeed need to be handled by someone and came out to a pretty bad outcome still.
Tanks sound ridiculous until you see they had grenade launchers, grenades, several fully automatic rifles, and 200,000 rounds of ammunition for 136 firearms.
That said, even your telling is not the official narrative, as the official narrative was inconclusive as to the cause which the FBI claims was either intentional or accidental by people in the building.
Of course there is no mention of them shooting massive amounts amounts of highly flammable gas into the building, with the full knowledge their primary heat source was open flame heaters....
or FBI and ATF randomly choose to burn dozens of children alive...
Davidians themselves have said the fires were set purposely. There is audio of them prepping fires to burn purposely. Independent experts have separately verified fires started in 3 separate locations with accelerants.
Anyway, the Davidians need not have started the fire for the initial claim, that FBI/ATF started the fire "as a tactic" to be completely and utterly wrong. Divorced from reality.
Edit: And no, they did not find FBI/ATF did nothing wrong. This was in fact a huge reckoning for both entities. But no, they did not purposely start the fires.
> ...by May 3 the Texas Rangers had recovered 305 firearms from the compound, and approximately 1.9 million rounds of "cooked off" or spent ammunition. Among the firearms found were at least 20 fully automatic AK-47 assault rifles; at least 12 fully automatic AR-15 assault rifles; at least two .50 caliber semi-automatic rifles; and anti-tank armor-piercing ammunition.
https://web.archive.org/web/20170511015809/https://www.justi...
> Davidian Donald Bunds recounted how Koresh ordered him to buy a lathe and milling machine; Bunds said he then learned to use them to help convert 90 to 100 assault rifles to automatic weapons in 1992. Bunds and several other Davidians testified that Koresh issued every male follower an automatic assault rifle and multiple magazines weeks before the ATF raid… at least 48 illegal machine guns were recovered from the burnt compound.
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/crime/2018/02/27/breaking-th...
``` 6:01 a.m.: A combat engineering vehicle (CEV) hits the building and sprays bursts of liquified CS gas powder. A Hostage Rescue Team sniper sees green tracer rounds fired at the CEV from the compound. FBI commanders shift to their "compromise plan" and gas the entire building.
6:09 a.m.: Davidians discuss pouring something in a hallway. One asks, "David said pour it, right?" Another says, "David said we have to get the fuel on."
6:19 a.m.: Koresh says, "Nobody comes in, huh?" Someone answers, "Nobody comes in." "Allright. They got some fuel around here?" Koresh asks. Schneider says, "Yeah, everybody."
6:29 a.m.: FBI commanders report that a CEV accidentally cut the Davidians' telephone line.
7:08 a.m.: A man says, "Real quickly you can order the fire, yes."
7:21 a.m.: Amid talk of spreading fuel, a man says, "So, we only light it first when they come in with the tank. ...right as they're coming in?" "Right," someone replies. A voice calls, "We should get more hay in here."
```
This suggests that "going after" the compound was not really about the welfare of any children. They could have hardly performed worse in said child welfare unless they had made an itty-bitty Dachau and ran the kids through it.
>This suggests that "going after" the compound was not really about the welfare of any children.
Not just that, but given the way things played out repeatedly (not just Waco, Ruby Ridge, the Elián González situation, etc) it's hard to believe much of what the FBI asserts happened in those cases. It's too difficult to not see some higher up putting their fingers on the scale and trying to whitewash what happened after the fact. What little we do know seems to really reek of REMFer controls over what was allowed to happen.
And who can forget the infamous images of some of the agents standing over the ashes with grins? No the official story on Waco is one of the things that I cannot take at face value. It certainly didn't help going to public school and hearing about the events while attending a church that had an (undeserved) reputation due to busybodies who made up stories. I grew up sincerely wondering if one day the government was going to show up at my church one Sunday.
For all that we're told the Branch Davidians were a cult (and certainly it sounded like they were depending on the sources you read up on) they had all the trappings of being just another church. It is only because we were told that they were cultists, that we were told they were child abusers that we mostly didn't wonder at how the government was acting towards a CHURCH, a place of WORSHIP. It's a serious blindspot, compounded by the fact that it was the government, their accusers who were responsible for all these deaths.
Yeah, I've got questions.
The authorities claimed a belief that doing nothing could lead to a mass suicide[1] (really a mass murder/suicide due to the children). This belief may have been reasonable based on the apocalyptic beliefs central to this Christian cult.
But, the authorities when discussing the decision to go on the offensive with an armored vehicle punching holes into the buildings and firing teargas canisters into those holes made claims that seem contradictory. The authorities said that they were aware that the Dividians possessed enough gas masks for all the adults, but that they hoped that "motherly instincts" would take over, and the parents would allow the children to flee[1]. I don't see why they would believe this, if they believed the Dividians were capable of murdering their children in a mass murder suicide.
Money is usually a factor in all things in the US. Perhaps cost was a factor in attempting to end the stand-off? Neighbors seemed to be becoming fatigued by the standoff too. An even more protracted siege may have ended better, or the Dividians might have chosen murder+suicide rather than surrendering no matter how long they were given.
Wikipedia article[2] states:
"Of the 85 Branch Davidians in the compound when the final siege began, 76 died on April 19 in various ways, from falling rubble to suffocating effects of the fire, or by gunshot from fellow Branch Davidians.[34] The siege had lasted 51 days."
But, skimming through that 34th citation[3], I didn't see anything that stated that Davidians were killed by gunfire from other Davidians (perhaps I missed it, but I don't think so). But, it and the LA Times article report on fire investigators who found various fire accelerants including kerosene and lighter fluid in multiple locations and on multiple members of the Christian cult. And, quite the armory of weapons including over a million spent round casings (many firearms illegally modified to be fully automatic) in the possession of the Davidians.
I heard an interview with an divinity scholar who said he and others had tried to reach David Koresh to try to convince him that his reading of the Apocalypses was incorrect (IIRC these attempts included messages delivered through advertisements taken out with local media). They believed that if they could convince Koresh he would end the standoff. Having interacted with religious zealots, this seems naive to me, but it certainly would have been worth trying. (I cannot remember the divinity scholar's name and my vague subject searches did not return anything useful)
[1] https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1993-04-20-mn-25027-...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branch_Davidians
[3] (this is wikipedia article citation #34) https://web.archive.org/web/20170511015809/https://www.justi...
was the article even remotely suggesting this?