Hacker News Reader

Comment by colmmacc | Hacker News Reader

That seems exactly backwards.

With DNSSEC zones are controlled and signed by a single authority, and for CCTLDs that authority is controlled by ... the government. If they wanted to produce a malicious signature and serve it narrowly to a targeted victim ... that's quite doable with little in the DNSSEC system to prevent it.

While it's true that there many TLS root cert operators and some probably could be compromised by a government (though I wouldn't say "trivially"), there is also a gigantic mutual destruction pact in the form of certificate transparency that means all certs issued are visible in transparency logs and there are quite sophisticated technical and social controls in place to detect malicious certs. The cert operator would be imperiling their business and future trust in a way that isn't as true for DNSSEC.

View on HN

The fundamental difference is that with TLS you have to trust ALL certificate issuers, but with DNSSec you only have to trust your TLD and your certificate issuer. Most companies trust their home country as a matter of practicality.

Certificate transparency is cool, but it's not clear it really works for many classes of devices (particularly devices that only use one network like gaming systems or TVs). The global adversary just compromises the channels used to obtain the transparency logs and to report violations. It seems to work for mobile consumer devices like cel phones, because these devices naturally connect to many different networks, of which only some are compromised.

All the CAs are required to log. You don't have to trust any of them.

The premise of CT isn't that every device is watching the logs in real time, such that your set-top box is somehow using it.

Somebody has got to check the logs and report violations. Chrome does, so CT works mostly for the world wide web, because all websites want to work in Chrome.

For a device like a router, if the router doesn't check the logs itself, and a global adversary compromises the TLS update channel for the router, and starts distributing malicious firmware... If the router itself doesn't report the violation, for how long might such a compromise go undetected? Is there any reason to think it'd ever be detected?

CT has a bit of an implicit dependency on heterogeneous configurations - that at least some clients report violations, and that attackers cannot easily distinguish reporting clients from non-reporting clients. For homogenous configurations (like the implementations of AWS, Azure, or GCM, or the deployment of routers, IOT devices, or gaming systems), it seems like a competent global adversary would simply figure out how to go unreported for that configuration, and nobody would particularly check.

> CT has a bit of an implicit dependency on heterogeneous configurations - that at least some clients report violations, and that attackers cannot easily distinguish reporting clients from non-reporting clients.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, this isn't really how CT works: the expectation for clients under a PKI with CT is that the presented certificate is already present in one or more logs, meaning that it's never (or more accurately, never has to be) the client actually doing the reporting. Reporting is left to separate monitoring parties.

In other words: a global adversary cannot surreptitiously use a novel CA against a particular configuration; they must first make themselves visible to one or more CT logs. Failing to do so means that their CA will be rejected outright by the client (or accepted by the client if the client doesn't do CT, but still with a loss of stealth).

The client has to get the CT log from somewhere, like an update channel (typically TLS). An attacker would compromise both the target and the process by which the client gets CT log updates.

Such an attack would be detected if some clients reported which certs they actually saw the next time they connected to an uncompromised network (as Chrome does) but if no clients report, such an attack could go undetected.

That's not how any of this works. Clients don't download the CT logs.

Clients get pre certificates (which are portions of the log) as claims in certificates. It's correct that they never download the whole log - I'm simplifying for clarity, not out of lack of understanding.

The fact remains - an adversary with a CA private key that can mitm all of the internet connections for a device can forge a fake CT log and go undetected, if that clients never uses a non-mitm network again.

No, because the presented certificate won't have any SCT entries (which are embedded in the certificate), and you can't fake the SCT entries without having access to the CT private keys.

> you can't fake the SCT entries without having access to the CT private keys.

So... Governments like the US and China can fake the entries by using their police forces to seize the private keys?

SCT has the same set of problems as TLS - any log will do, not just logs from countries you trust.

This is why multiple SCT entries are required. Could you subvert all of this with enough effort? Yes, and the same is true of dnssec. Any form of cryptographic validation is only as secure as the control of its private keys, but modern TLS is designed to require you to compromise at least 3 independent parties in the TLS ecosystem to provide a plausible fake. And at that point why not just get the browser vendor to push a fake update to the user that disables TLS validation entirely? You're either doing all validation yourself, or you're trusting someone. Modern TLS avoids you needing to place trust in any one organisation from the TLS perspective, which makes attacks on other infrastructure components much more appealing.

This is not an accurate description of how CT provides security.

To begin with, CAs are allowed to operate logs themselves, so the minimum number of independent parties is 2, not 3.

Second, CT log private keys are not particularly well-protected. They are not stored in HSMs. One log's private key has been presumed compromised since 2020 because the server running the log was pwned via a vulnerability in the Salt configuration management system. SCTs from this log are still accepted by Apple (and by Chrome, until earlier this year) for satisfying the minimum SCT requirement.

Rather, CT provides security by using a Merkle Tree so that SCTs can be audited. In theory, clients can demand proof that an SCT is really included in a log, and gossip tree heads with monitors to ensure that monitors have the same view of the log as them. If an SCT fails auditing, or a log is found to have presented inconsistent views of its Merkle Tree, this can be detected and the log can be distrusted. In practice, this is quite challenging. Apple currently doesn't audit SCTs at all; Chrome probabilistically audits a subset of SCTs.

The crucial difference is who decides which cryptographic entities to trust. With TLS and CT, the browser defines the list of entities and if 3 or more of those entities live in a hostile country, you can be compromised. With DNSSec and CAA, the site operator gets to define the list of entities.

Ok. That's an argument you can make. Now go back and make that in the first place rather than diverting everyone down an incredibly tedious demonstration of you making assertive statements that are just factually wrong. There's space to talk about what tradeoffs are reasonable here (eg, if this is something you're concerned about, you can pick a CA that's not in a hostile country, and you can enable certificate stapling at the cost of increased fragility and depending on some level of TOFU), but when you start the conversation by just being clearly wrong and then double down on that when multiple people suggest that you're wrong and point at resources indicating that you're wrong, you're not doing a great job of making that space available.

It's the argument I made at the top:

> The fundamental difference is that with TLS you have to trust ALL certificate issuers, but with DNSSec you only have to trust your TLD and your certificate issuer.

It's probably fair to say I've been a bit over assertive about CT, but it's all in the margin to me. No amount of technical complexity can turn community trust into direct trust. TLS is a community trust model and DNSSec is a direct trust model. The fact that CT is a pretty good community trust model and that browsers have (so far) done a pretty good job at keeping the CT community small is interesting, but it doesn't turn community trust into direct trust. So while I'd agree it's an incredibly tedious tangent, I'd say it's tedious moreso because the pro-CT folks are missing the forest for the trees than for any technical details about CT.

Edit: because community trust fundamentally relies on the notion of the community taking action against bad actors. Whether it's a CA or a CT log provider, and whether it's malicious action or a bug or just ceasing to do business, community trust has a time axis where membership in the community changes and notions of keeping devices up to date and political struggles ("too big to fail") and the like that simply aren't needed in direct trust.

CT trust does not in fact rely on "the community" at large taking action against bad actors. The history of CA surveillance will avail.

Of course it does. CT trust relies on root programs removing bad CAs and root programs and security researchers sharing information about bad CAs with root programs. The root programs, CA, and security researchers are colloquially "the CA community".

This kind of handwaving summary would be more credible if it hadn't been preceded by a long thread where it was made clear you didn't understand how CT functioned, at, like, a very basic level. You entered this conversation stridently equating CT monitoring with things like revocation checking.

I'm not looking for a debate; I'm just calling out things you say that are misleading and moving on. You're welcome to dispute my callouts! I'm satisfied that the thread establishes which arguments are credible and which aren't.

You are looking for a debate, I think. It's the whole thread. You're nerd sniping. It's classic.

You're not a fan of DNSSEC and prefer CT. When faced with examples where CT doesn't cut it, you refuse to discuss the big picture, pounce on incorrect details, and then resort to claiming your opponents are uninformed or arguing in bad faith.

The bottom line is my original big picture claim, the part that's on-topic for the article - that CT works for browsers on personal computers but not other classes of internet connected devices - it's true! And you know it! But you'd rather debate the details than inform readers about what they actually want to know (the big picture - i.e. that DNSSEC is useful).

I've observed your behavior before on hacker news, but experiencing it directly is eye opening.

It is difficult to make any sense out of your claim that internet connected devices can't benefit from CT. The initial claim you made was based on the unreliable connectivity and update channels of those devices, neither of which are especially implicated in enforcing CT --- your belief was that devices went and checked CT logs over the Internet on the fly to validate certificates, which, of course, no.

Ironically, this actually is a problem for DNSSEC validation! It's the literal reason why Chrome pulled its original DNSSEC/DANE implementation from the browser.

It's not a completely nonsensical concern - Chrome relies on a reliable connection to Google in order to get log list updates and do SCT auditing. If an attacker can block log list updates for long enough, CT enforcement is disabled entirely (i.e. certificates with no SCTs will be accepted), and if they can block SCT auditing for long enough, bogus SCTs will not be detected. This fail-open behavior was an intentional design choice so that CT would never break the Internet, as DNSSEC so often has. I think CT made very sensible tradeoffs here, but I understand matthew9219's complaints even if the details aren't entirely correct.

I'm hung up on the idea that challenges keeping a log list updated disqualify CT, thus motivating deployment of DNSSEC, a protocol so dependent on a clean connection to the Internet that its deployment in browsers on modern operating systems was derailed.

I acknowledge that embedded systems are a difficult place to do the policy-driven cryptographic security that we're talking about when we talk about the WebPKI and DANE. They're difficult for all sorts of reasons and they're difficult for all of software security, not just this. But they're pretty clearly also not a motivation for the deployment of DNSSEC; in fact, they're a sort of worst case for DNSSEC.

That's what this whole long subthread is about. It wasn't a strong argument. The thread has mostly been attempts to lay out why it isn't, without any interesting evidence for DNSSEC's suitability being presented.

You are almost correct. The claims are called SCTs (precertificates are something else). The SCT is a promise by the log that they have (or will soon) publish the certificate. The promise could be lie. To detect that, the client is supposed to audit the SCT. If the audit fails, the client reports it so the log can be distrusted.

So yes, it's true that if an adversary can permanently silo off a client, it can prevent log misbehavior from being detected, either by blocking the reporting of audit failures, or by presenting a completely different view of the log to to the client. However, in many cases it would be impractical for an adversary to keep up such an attack forever, so CT still has value and I'm a huge fan of it. But it's true it can't stop literally all attacks.

Source: I run the CT monitor which has detected misbehavior in multiple CT logs.

I don't think you're providing clarity at all, because that attack doesn't work.

If you wanted to use your words to explain why you think that, that might be more constructive. I could well respond "yes, it does work" but that wouldn't be useful. I know you're an expert in the space and might appreciate learning from you, but this is not that.

I'm sorry, but I'm declining to do that, because I recognize the message board conversational pattern where all the information you have about the subject is coming from comments rebutting you (this is apparent from things you've said already that fundamentally misapprehend how CT works), and, rather than acknowledging any of that information, you just use it as vocabulary for new misapprehensions.

Clients do not get pre-certs. Those are generated by the CA, and submitted to the log in return for an SCT. Forging a ‘fake CT log’ isn’t possible, either. Nor do clients talk to CT logs, at all.

> Forging a ‘fake CT log’ isn’t possible, either

Why do you think this isn't possible?

Aside from what mjg59 said, it's clear you don't quite understand how CT works. Logs are stood up and then go through a fairly rigorous acceptance process by Google (and Apple) before finally being used. 'Used' in that a CA can then submit pre-certs to it and include the resulting SCTs in signed certificates, making them functional on Chrome/Apple platforms. Even the CA using the log generally takes some communication with the log operator to ensure the right set of roots are trusted for submitted pre-certs.

CT logs are used by CAs, not clients. A 'fake' log isn't a thing.

If you are able to compromise a CA and generate a bogus certificate, why couldn't you also compromise a certificate transparency log provider and generate a bogus signed merkle hash?

(Not that I'm a DNSSEC user myself, my feet aren't bulletproof)

Not sure what you really mean here - CAs are required to get SCTs from multiple, independently-operated logs. Even then, I think what you're implying here is mathematically impossible, and easily and immediately detectable. Bear in mind on at least 2 occasions these logs have detected and been decommissioned based on cosmic-ray induced bit-flips, not discovered by the actual log operators. CT is a pretty robust system.

Fwiw (tangent), I don't necessarily believe either of those instances were cosmic-ray induced bit-flips. I'd have to dig up the study, but I read a study once that more or less concluded "cosmic-rays are more common in memory unsafe languages and on overclocked PCs". Or more accurately, engineers frequently misattribute memory corrupt and operating outside specification to cosmic rays.

Particularly when the software in question is running on somebody else computer, proprietary software and OS (or OS modules), unknown patch versions, etc.

Because they don't have access to the private key material owned by the CT logs that the browsers trust when validating SCT data in the certificate.

I'm not sure why you're so fixated on this idea of client systems monitoring CT logs.

Operators who host infrastructure can and should be monitoring issuance in CT logs for domains they operate, which will allow them to identify and react to any unexpected issuance for those domains.

In the attack DNSSec prevents, a client is compromised by a cert that doesn't appear in the CT logs, so infrastructure monitoring is irrelevant.

Most browsers will reject such a certificate. See https://googlechrome.github.io/CertificateTransparency/ct_po... for the policy Chrome imposes - my understanding is that Safari is broadly similar. Right now I don't think Firefox performs this validation, so this is possible if you know in advance that your target runs Firefox.

That page explains that Chrome (which is best in class here - most IOT devices don't do any of this stuff) fails open:

> If the installed version of Chrome has not applied security updates and has been unable to obtain an updated CT log list from the Component Updater for 70 days or more, then CT enforcement will be disabled.

That means a global adversary need merely block the update channel to targeted devices and wait. How will a Smart TV behave?

You're moving the goalposts to a ridiculous degree. Chrome will be incredibly angry at you if you haven't updated in 70 days. How will a smart TV behave? I've no idea. It's probably not paying any attention to dnssec (otherwise pihole and co wouldn't work), so I don't think you're presenting a credible alternative.

That's just not what's happening. Reread the conversation. I started from here:

> Certificate transparency is cool, but it's not clear it really works for many classes of devices

Smart TVs aren't some gotcha I'm throwing in at the end. It's literally the first thing I said about CT. CT works ok for mobile phones, laptops, and other devices where you can make certain assumptions about multiple networks and frequent updates. If you want a technology that doesn't require these assumptions, you want DNSSec.

Once you've got a 70 day old browser you're just waiting for it to hit one domain you can MITM or serve content from and then you've got arbitrary code execution and who cares whether dnssec is involved or not. Attacking CT is just not the threat model to be concerned about.

The example I gave was a router or gaming system updating itself (e.g. using CUrl) not a full browser. Don't strawman please - if my argument is as weak as you say, you shouldn't need to.

I want a version of Web PKI strong enough that I can turn off my tablet for a year, turn it back on in a coffee shop, apply automatic updates, and not have my web traffic monitored, even if I'm gay and the coffee shop is in Saudi Arabia.

From what I can see, DNSSec+CAA+.com+US CA+US hosting for the Android update server does the trick. No version of CT does.

The Play Store has cert pinning, so this all works just fine in the scenario you're describing.

Web PKI so strong that we recommend not using it for critical scenarios.. /s

It's late and I maybe haven't been super constructive here, but I think when you try to write out the actual assumptions behind CT as the whole solution, you realize you've got something that mostly works assuming assuming assuming - and worse, we'll never do any better, because those assumptions are fundamental technical limits. DNSSec may be ugly but at least its problems (like validators failing open) are just deployment issues, not fundamental technical issues.

I'm sick and tired of using technologies that provide security or correctness subject to a long list of preconditions and ways for folks to tell me I'm using it wrong. To build secure systems, we need technology that provides correct security without so much asterisks and fine print.

The whole premise of your argument about set-top boxes and CT was refuted, and you've used that as evidence that you were right all along.

Do you believe CT protects set-top boxes against surveillance from nation state actors who compromise your router? Yes or no, if you don't answer, you're not engaging in good faith.

Nobody's ever going to continue discussing things with you when you end your comments with barbs like "if you don't answer, you're not engaging in good faith."

I don't think firmware updates for routers is a good example. That seems more like the kind of situation where you should actually be using your own PKI.

Even if you trust the current CAs (all of them) to not intentionally issue bad certificates, you must also trust all of them not to have their systems broken into. If even one CA gets compromised, the hackers can issue certificates for any name.

How can you prove that all CAs log every certificate they produce?

You can't, but a certificate that isn't logged won't work for the overwhelming majority of practical use-cases (ie any Google or Apple owned product). If you need a certificate that doesn't care about those, you perhaps don't need a publicly-trusted certificate in the first place.

In addition to what nickf said in the parallel comment, CAs have committed to CT logging as part of being included in browser trust stores. If anyone were to find and report any certificates issued by those CAs via their trusted certificates that were not in CT logs, that would be strong evidence for browsers to remove them from the trust stores, which would essentially destroy their company.

That is not true. CAs are not required to log their certificates. Instead, Chrome and Safari by default do not accept certificates unless they are accompanied by a signed receipt from a recognized log. If you don't need your certificate to work in a default-configured Chrome or Safari there is no need for your certificate to be logged.

Source: I work in this space

Here what you really mean is "if your certificates will never touch Chrome", because it's not just that Chrome won't accept them, but that Chrome's SCT auditing is part of a surveillance system for certificate misissuance.

I'm not sure what you mean by "surveillance system for certificate misissuance". Chrome's SCT auditing has nothing to do with detecting certificate misissuance; just misbehaving logs.

I'm literally just waking up right now and typing this from bed (ignore what that says about me as a person) so cut me some slack if this makes no sense and I reserve the right to come back and "clarify" what I was saying but: if Chromes see a Sectigo certificate for (say) Facebook.com with no SCTs, Google is going to notice.

Nope. If Chrome sees a certificate with no SCTs, it rejects the certificate but doesn't report it to Google. (Except possibly for telemetry.) Google doesn't care if CAs issue certificates without SCTs; in fact, some CAs routinely do so for customers which want to keep internal hostnames private. (e.g. https://docs.aws.amazon.com/acm/latest/userguide/acm-bestpra...)

SCT auditing only takes place if a certificate has SCTs. SCT auditing checks to make sure that the log really published the certificate. If it didn't, then the bad SCT is reported to Google so the log can be kicked out of Chrome.

Yep, I acknowledge this is the case. Thanks for the correction!

Reply on news.ycombinator.com