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So any opinion other than your own is propaganda fed by the west, but the only true reality is the one you agree with that paints India in a flattering light.
Using “the world happiness index” as some kind of gotcha propaganda is hilarious, when we’re discussing actual issues like arresting protestors. Just ridiculous.
I won’t be replying again to you because I don’t think you are capable of accepting that other people disagree with your world view. It’s unhealthy and I really think you need to leave your own bubble.
Some day you will realize the Western media is a propaganda tool wielded by the powerful arms and other lobbies to paint their targets and give the Western governments pretext to begin interfering in the matters of a non-pliable foreign government.
When social and political norms can vary within individual states, let alone the entire country, it causes people to feel reporting about very negative or very positive news is propaganda one way or the other.
A lot of this is then further inflamed by IT Cells from parties across the board, especially because most NRIs are getting news about India via the internet plus social media.
Add to that the fact that most Western media isn't biased (I've worked with them), but might write articles using a broad brush that pisses other NRIs off and then we all devolve into regionalist or casteist bickering.
Eg. When the Unnao tragedy happened (which was horrible), it was reported in some western media that it was in India and broad brushed as an Indian issue. A number of Tamil and Malayali friends too offense to that and began saying "oh, it's actually Uttar Pradesh. Bhaiyyas are always like that" and regionalist shit like that, which obviously pissed off the UP+Bihari wale in my office.
On the side, you can see propagandists like Agnihotri inflaming Hindu-Muslim tensions by bringing up the Kerala Story as if every single Malayali Muslim is a future Jihadi and inflaming Hindi-Southern tensions by making a number of idiots assume Malayalis are a 5th column, which is an extremely horrible broad brushed assertation
And finally, a lot of people say that BJP voters are illiterate and illiteracy is pushing back India. As someone with family from small town India who has known illiterate people, they are smart as you and I. Just because they didn't get the opportunity to learn to read+write doesn't mean they can't think rationally and logically. So for NRIs from lower middle and working class (as a lot of NRIs increasingly are now), it feels very classist and insulting.
Basically, what I'm getting at is that we use our prior experiences and background to understand a country, but when you are dealing with a country as large and diverse as India it automatically falls apart.
Have you forgotten the New York Times job ad for South Asia Business Correspondent for India?
Since you say Western media isn't biased and that you have worked with them, I would like to see at least one huff piece published by Western media on Modi/BJP. Surely there has to be at least one article to counter all the anti-Modi/anti-BJP articles we keep seeing propping up in the Western media. If you can't find even one piece that can counter-balance the mainstream narrative about India and its ruling political party then it isn't actually "unbiased". The tilt towards one side of the political spectrum is pretty obvious to all those who have been seeing Western media play its game.
> so large and diverse that commentators can be right and wrong at the exact same time when painting a brush with the term "India"
Yeah and since when has Western media ever understood this nuance? The bias is deep seated and pretty obvious to observers like me who fall on the other side of the political spectrum.
The NYT is not the primary source of truth for policymakers in the United States.
I agree there are a number of issues with the NYT's Delhi office, and a lot of that stems from bad pay.
The media ecosystem in the US works the same way as how the media works pin India. I haven't seen very nuanced discussions about American institutions in the Dainik Jagran, Hindustan Times, or WION either.
> Yeah and since when has Western media ever understood this nuance?
In the Media that is actually consumed and read and used by policymakers like when I was on the Hill, as well as in the educational programs that bring future Americans into the Foreign Service.
I don't have any issue with most current policymakers in US (for the past decade at the very least). Surprisingly most US lawmakers have their own individual views on India (unaffected/not influenced by Western media) and have a good working relationship with the GoI (including Modi and more specifically Jaishankar). This includes policymakers from both sides of the political spectrum (Republicans as well as the Democrats). Thank God for that. Else if they actually believed half the articles that came out of papers like NYT or Washington Post, they would have a totally warped understanding of India. And a really negative one at that. Policymakers pre-Bush era got most things about India wrong (and paid a price for it too with WTC bombings, 9/11 and finding Osama Bin Laden hiding close to their Ally's military complex). US Policymakers have changed their outlook and very few actually hold on to the anti-India stance that they once had. That's welcome.
My issue is with the common citizens getting a warped view of India. That's all.
> In the Media that is actually consumed and read and used by policymakers like when I was on the Hill, as well as in the educational programs that bring future Americans into the Foreign Service.
That's good to know. But Western Media still has a lot to catch up vis-a-vis being unbiased. They still heavily tilt towards parties that are non-BJP. That is fine if that is their intended outlook. But at least let it not pretend to be unbiased then.
> The media ecosystem in the US works the same way as how the media works pin India. I haven't seen very nuanced discussions about American institutions in the Dainik Jagran, Hindustan Times, or WION either.
Yes I agree with you that Indian media is biased too. Most of the media outlets are pro-Modi/pro-BJP. And in a way it should also be seen as a counter to Western media outlets and continuous disinformation/propaganda that kept coming from there. Let us not forget that people who work in Media organizations also have their own individual biases and they typically hire people who subscribe to their biases. It is not always necessarily a money thing (where the ruling party pays a media organization to speak in its favour). Many a times it is purely for ideological reasons.
Much the same as NYT or WP. The only problem is when NYT/WP is that it proclaims itself to be unbiased. That's when I go "Come on man I know you aren't. Quit the pretence".
Also Indian media typically is reactionary. We don't particularly have nuanced discussions about the West because first and foremost we don't have our own statistics bureau that can create all sorts of indexes that the West creates out of thin air. Some of the Western Indexes are based on factual research but most of them aren't. And we just typically counter them in a reactionary manner. We do not invest efforts into actually coming up with actual statistics or at least indulge in counter-propaganda. That appetite simply does not exist. Many of these Western statistics, stories and news articles go unrebutted.
Like I gave an example of World Happiness Index. Let us take World Press Freedom Index. India ranks below Afghanistan in World Press Freedom Index. 11 spots behind Afghanistan. This is a total joke. Is the West actually trying to say that Taliban, which is ruling Afghanistan now, has more Press Freedom than India? You see how these nonsensical statistics go unchallenged? Because what would you even counter these with? It is that ridiculous! Surely if everything was so bad in India we wouldn't be a thriving and one of the fastest growing economies in the World today. We would all be on the streets rioting (like what happened in Sri Lanka) and storming Modi's residence. Most of it is hyperbole.
Good to know you consider the World Happiness Index 2023 as hubris. We can finally agree on something.
> I won’t be replying again to you because I don’t think you are capable of accepting that other people disagree with your world view
Funny how you believe "I don’t think you are capable of accepting that other people disagree with your world view" and in the text rejected my valid argument which you had absolutely zero counter for.
Either accept that the World Happiness Index is a fabrication of the West or rebut with facts as to why India ranks below Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Myanmar. You got stumped with just this easiest piece of fact that you couldn't even counter. Tells me everything I need to know.
> when we’re discussing actual issues like arresting protestors
Cry me a river. The West is so pristine it doesn't arrest protesters at all. Nor do Government agencies kill people randomly. Nor does it indulge in assassinations both within its own soil or in countries that it has no jurisdiction over. Nor does the West bomb other nations to bits. Nor does it arrest farmers and confiscate their properties and bank accounts. The West is epitome of truth, fairness and justice. While puny Indians back home, which you incidentally rejected because of the deep seated hatred, are the horrible ones who do not have capacity to discern truth from fiction and do not understand how a Democracy functions.
Give me a break!
Classic Example of whataboutery.
Wat.
Honestly, this attitude—equating moderate criticism with “rabid hate”— causes me to pause every time I get excited about India. There are democratic trade-offs in development. India has made them decently historically, and well recently. But the way you tank that balance is with blind jingoism.
I was responding to this comment: "I absolutely hate the way fellow Indians will just try and deflect negative stories about India as western propaganda."
Nice try trying to change the tone of his sentence (which was "I absolutely hate") to "moderate criticism". There is nothing "moderate" about "absolutely hating" something/someone. I was just responding to that "extreme" emotion he was projecting. Such extreme emotions might win you the mob but it won't change facts.
> causes me to pause every time I get excited about India
Okay. And? What difference would it make to India's growth trajectory if you lose your excitement? Is it going to make any dent?
> But the way you tank that balance is with blind jingoism.
Lol. As an Indian the only content I get to consume majority of the times, from Western media/press, is how shitty India is. And this has nothing to do with BJP/Modi but has to do with how India has always been projected in the Western media. Take literally any media clip of India showcased on Western news channels and you will have at least 1 clip of Mumbai slum (which is the smallest portion of Mumbai, a part of Maharashtra state in India) projected as India itself. It is like Indian channels showing Skid Row as USA. So if you feel some sort of "jingoism" coming from me it is purely a response to the nonsense I always see on Western media whenever India is talked about. As it almost always projects and enhances stereotypes already existing about India and Indians. And lets not forget the most common tropes: poverty, illiteracy, drinking water, sanitation, slums, education, electricity etc. No matter how much India improves and solves these issues (many of which are close to 100%) it still wouldn't satisfy West's craving for denigrating India just for kicks.
So if I feel defensive about it, don't construe it as jingoism for the sake of it. I actually feel the difference in standard of living after being born here and lived for 34 years. I presume I have more experience about how much India has changed compared to Westerners or even NRIs who abandoned India for greener pastures and sit in the West and pontificate. Sorry if I sound jingoistic but I don't really care. Especially when the West doesn't really care about how India is denigrated repeatedly in their Media.
And if anyone has even a mild amount of criticism of the West, they get banned/cancelled in the West or worse bombed out of existence (Iraq/Syria/Libya). So much for tolerance to free speech and human rights.
Fair enough. “I hate” in American English is a complaining—not raging—tone, though I grant it’s ambiguous and concede it shouldn’t be used.
> What difference would it make to India's growth trajectory if you lose your excitement?
Not much. Generally speaking, “fuck you, I’m beautiful” cultures that turn insecurity into a national sport have a common path.
India’s elites are savvy enough to build trade and diplomatic relationships, learn from others’ successes and failures and show outward strength. But I’ve seen this dismissive attitude towards criticism of any kind in my own family, and it’s paused at least my investing in India. (The only other places I see this, ironically, is in the U.K., Russia and rural American south.)
> I presume I have more experience about how much India has changed compared to Westerners or even NRIs who abandoned India for greener pastures and sit in the West and pontificate
Right. This attitude. It’s limiting in its rejection of unexpected sources of information. Again, it’s not common. Particularly among the elite and worldly. But as in America, when this attitude spreads, it diminishes prospects.
And why is this so important? If you don't invest someone else will. The World is huge. There are plenty of players who are willing to invest in India's growth: both within borders of India as well as people from outside India. No dearth of those who believe in India's future.
> Generally speaking, “fuck you, I’m beautiful” cultures that turn insecurity into a national sport have a common path.
You know who excels at this the most? The West. Its penchant for "installing democracy" in various countries, by force, and then leaving it completely destabilized and destroyed is something we have seen happen time and time again. Which is why you see trends of de-dollarization and non-alignment picking up rapidly. If India doesn't toe the Western line of thought we are targeted, either with sanctions (like in the 90s after reciprocal nuclear tests) or pompous pontifications on democracy/human rights in 2020s (because the West no longer can simultaneously sanction as well as invest in India's growth can it?). You see we Indians know how to survive and thrive even in the worst of conditions. The 90s are a good reminder for all of us as to how reliable the West is. If we go further back into the 70s we had to face off a Western Alliance which sent ships to nuke us out of existence because we chose to side with Democracy against an evil Dictatorship which the West was mollycoddling with. If you don't know what I am talking about read up on the USS Enterprise and the 7th fleet (Task Force 74). [1]
So yeah it applies more to the West compared to ancient cultures rooted in tradition like India.
> (The only other places I see this, ironically, is in the U.K., Russia and rural American south.)
So you are saying you don't see the West indulging in this but only U.K., Russia and rural American south? No wonder why the West is failing the past decade. Do you not even see the strong anti-West sentiment in the air as well as the de-dollarization that is gathering rapid speed/progress? If I were in your position I wouldn't be bothered about investing in India being an issue but be more worried about protecting my investments in the West considering the crazy geopolitical decisions the West has been taking lately. It has eroded a lot of confidence/trust other countries had towards the West. To the point where we are building alternate infrastructure to settle trade (which is currently dominated by the West with its SWIFT infrastructure). Not a good outlook for the West at the very least. Western hegemony will end. It is no longer a question of "if" but "when".
> India’s elites are savvy enough to build trade and diplomatic relationships, learn from others’ successes and failures and show outward strength
We don't need to learn from others' successes and failures. We have plenty of our own successes and failures if we just bother to look back into our rich Ancient history (which many Westernized Indians lack basic knowledge in). And most Indian elites/diplomats/businessmen have given examples from India's Ancient history as their source of strength. Have linked an example of the same from India's best EAM that we have ever had until now [2].
> limiting in its rejection of unexpected sources of information
Please. Do not try to simplify this issue as an issue of rejecting "unexpected sources of information". The Western media has been playing this playbook for decades now. Most articles you see about India or the Indian Government (irrespective of who is in power) is mostly anti-India. Even positive news (like a successful rocket launch by ISRO) is sprinkled with at least some amount of negativity. The usual trope being poverty. There is no two ways about it. None of this is "unexpected". Rather Indians would find it "unexpected" if the West does not use any of the usual stereotypes associated with Indians and broadcasts news as is. We are so used to the denigration that many have become immune to it over time. We just expect to see at least one b-roll of Mumbai slum, of a heavily crowded marketplace, people hanging from trains and if not for these then definitely one of monkeys hopping buildings stealing food. Pick any news story about India from any Western publication, watch the story and tell me you don't see at least one of these typical racial stereotypes.
[1] https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/calling-the-uss-bluff...
May be World Happiness Index 2023 data is bit flawed. But I don't think that means whole world is sharing propaganda against India.
>> Heck we get 100Mbps-1Gbps unlimited internet connectivity anywhere in India at the lowest rates possible in the entire World.
How is it an achievement of Government while this was done by private companies like Reliance at the cost of public owned BSNL? Government actually let the loss of public tax payers money by giving favourable treatment to private companies.
Modi and his fans always talk about low prices of internet in India, while its a failure of government to control Reliance where Reliance is using money raised from state bank to give dirt cheap internet connection to public and killing the competition. They have already started raising the prices now that several competitors are gone. [1]
Reliance raises money from public banks, Reliance uses that money to get tower network of public owned BSNL, Reliance gets priority over BSNL to launch 4G, Reliance is in profit while BSNL is in loss, Government employee phone connections are transferred from BSNL to private entity Reliance. [2] [3] [4]
>> I don't need some stupid organization in the West to tell me I am more unhappy than these countries.
Why care about other stupid organizations while you have "Whatsapp university" to keep us informed. [5]
[1] https://www.indiatoday.in/technology/news/story/your-phone-b...
[2] https://www.livemint.com/industry/telecom/reliance-jio-emerg...
[3] https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/karnataka/state-polic...
[4] https://www.indiatoday.in/technology/news/story/forget-5g-bs...
[5] https://www.outlookindia.com/national/the-age-of-whatsapp-un...
Okay then lets take the World Press Freedom Index 2023. India is behind Afghanistan by 9 points in Press Freedom. Explain how Taliban ruled Afghanistan grants more Press Freedom than Democratic India.
Make it make sense to me.
[1]: Afghanistan Press Freedom Index: https://rsf.org/en/country/afghanistan [2]: India Press Freedom Index: https://rsf.org/en/country/india
What nonsense. It is exact opposite of what you are saying. BSNL was always a loss making company that never innovated and was kept stagnant for decades. We all saw how shabby the 2G rollout was. And who subsidized BSNL? It was us, the tax payers. They never turned a profit even once. Even now they are "expected" to turn a profit in 2026-27.
What you are advocating for is maximum Government. That almost always ends in disaster. What you should be aiming for is minimum Government. We, the People, have granted Government powers through the Constitution. The reason we did that is because somethings are best managed by the Government than either free markets or people themselves: building infrastructure, security, law and order, healthcare, protecting borders. Anything beyond this is not mandate of the Government. Government has no business being in business. The more private players are encouraged the better for growth of an country/economy. The less Government intervention the better.
Reliance bought the licenses for 4G through an auction. And it was bought in 2010 (during Congress ruled UPA era). So your ridiculous accusation of "giving favourable treatment to private companies" applies to Congress more than anyone else. Either ways, I don't find anything wrong in it as it was a fair auction that did not go the ways of 2G scam. The auction happened during the Congress regime. Reliance won. But Congress failed to setup the infrastructure needed for Reliance to build the network. This is where the Government is needed to intervene and help out by building infrastructure. PPP partnerships are forged for this reason only. Government builds basic infrastructure (like connecting roads, electricity lines, plumbing etc), Private Companies build plants, machinery and in this case installing antennas and laying of fibre optic cables. It takes two to tango. Congress was missing in the picture as it was busy with corruption. It is only when BJP came to power that this project was fast tracked.
> where Reliance is using money raised from state bank to give dirt cheap internet connection to public and killing the competition
Lol you are talking as if Reliance had underdogs as competitors. Airtel, Vodafone, Idea etc are all billion dollar companies. They could have easily taken on Reliance. In fact they were quite content with their dominence in the sector and refused to innovate. It is not Reliance's fault if the competition was caught sleeping at the wheels.
> They have already started raising the prices now that several competitors are gone.
Welcome to Capitalism 101. This is how it works everywhere. Not just in India.
> How is it an achievement of Government while this was done by private companies like Reliance
Did I say it is achievement of the Government anywhere? I talked about positive changes that are happening in India and the infrastructure developmental projects that are shaping such outcomes. For Reliance to lay their antennas and fibre optic cables it requires Government to support through infrastructure development. By making connecting roads/highways and digging necessary lines for fibre optic cables to be laid. This is the work of the Government: infrastructure. The Government did not setup the network. I never said that anywhere.
> Reliance raises money from public banks, Reliance uses that money to get tower network of public owned BSNL, Reliance gets priority over BSNL to launch 4G, Reliance is in profit while BSNL is in loss, Government employee phone connections are transferred from BSNL to private entity Reliance.
Dude how different is it from the West? Even in the West you have Verizon, AT&T etc. Does the US have something equivalent to BSNL? Nope it doesn't. In fact I want Modi to shut down BSNL. It is a big drain on tax payer money. Just like US doesn't have any state owned telecom companies, India shouldn't have one either. Especially one which is stagnant and unable to innovate. We can use the tax payer money for other better causes.
> Why care about other stupid organizations while you have "Whatsapp university" to keep us informed. [5]
When you have no proper rebuttal this is the crap you come up with. This is why Opposition can never win the General Election in India. You guys suck at this. Most of your information is hollow at best. No proper study. Just a bunch of links from media stories. If you had known that Reliance won the 4G auction during UPA regime you wouldn't have even made this point.
Wasn't the work on UPI started in 2009 and the vision statement was prepared in 2012, 2 years before Modi/BJP came to power?
>> In April 2009, National Payment Corporation of India (NPCI) was formed to integrate all the payment mechanisms in India and make them uniform for all retail payments. RBI in 2012 released a vision statement for a period of four years that indicated commitment towards building a safe, efficient, accessible, inclusive, interoperable and authorized payment and settlement system in India. UPI was officially launched in 2016 for public use. [1]
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Payments_Interface
So no matter if you have great ideas, if you do not even believe in those ideas let alone execute on them it is as good as dead ideas.
We would have progressed rapidly had UPA not indulged in corruption and working tirelessly to convict Modi in the Gujarat riots cases and instead focused its efforts on doing some actual developmental work, many of those ideas rightfully was thought of in its time (which i'll give credit for). But they lacked big time on execution. Modi had a proven track record in Gujarat which helped him beat Congress in 2014 elections. He just has brought most of Congress's plans to fruition which Congress doesn't like for obvious reasons.
UPA losing power is its own doing more than BJP's coming to power. Heck even Modi keeps taunting Congress in the Parliament saying that most of the policies that Congress opposes today was all their own plans that they never brought to life. That's the reason the Opposition is unable to counter BJP. BJP is just doing exactly what the Opposition promised in its manifesto when it came to development but never delivered.
[1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/IndiaSpeaks/comments/qlky5t/mps_who...
Is this[1] or is this not P. Chidambaram, Indian Finance Minister during the Congress-led UPA regime, criticizing the government's digital payment plans? You think such a pessimistic guy or his government would have done anything to make UPI a success except in a half-hearted fashion?
There is a saying: success has many fathers while failure is an orphan. No wonder when UPI has turned out to be a resounding success, people either turn up to claim credit or to run down the success of the current government.