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Comment by ChatGTP | Hacker News Reader

Imagine if Toyota would've just made a simple, but nicely build electric car 3-5 years ago. Pretty foolish mistake.

They had a 10 year head start on EVs (well, Hybrids), with the Prius and blew it.

Worse: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/07/toyota-bet-wrong-on-evs...

Even worse is they had multiple generations of a RAV4 EV, which they stopped manufacturing in 2014. They made it along side Tesla in the same plant that now makes Model Ys.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV

Funny that now they have the Rav4 Prime, which by some metrics is a top contender in the plugin-hybrid space.

How much does this really matter? I feel like Tesla is strong in the market because they figured out how to market an EV as a sports car. Toyota was never going to do that.

It probably doesn’t matter. There are plenty of people who want simpler cars, but still want an electric drive train. There must be loads of us holding out for a Corolla or Camry like EV.

I don’t understand why Toyota has not produced a model like this and is doubling down on their Hybrids and hydrogen engines.

In the US it was the experience I think. Just like Uber in some markets where taxis were a shitty experience before, buying a car was (apparently) a crappy experience in the US before Tesla. But that's a very local phenomenon. Not sure about the sports car thing though. It's not much difference between a Model Y and a Mach-E or Polestar2 when it comes to this. Tesla did have the performance angle because they were early movers and compared to an ICE car their entire lineup is obviously looking pretty snappy.

Most buyers though just want a boring reliable car. If a known and Trusted brand made a car that was just 10% more expensive and 10% less attractive on specs than a Tesla, then Toyota would eat their lunch I think.

Why not? Toyota sells sports cars.

Toyota's sports cars actually show pretty well at how adverse they are to making them.

The Supra has a BMW engine, a BMW gearbox and a BMW interior with a BMW infotainment system, while the Toyota 86 is a joint project between Toyota and Subaru, with a Subaru engine and built in Subaru's plant.

What about the Corolla GR and Yaris GR, though?

They’re definitely Toyota cars but not really sports cars. They’re just hot versions of the Corolla and Yaris, which are definitely not sports cars. Unless we also define the Tesla Model S Plaid, BMW M3 and the Mercedes-Benz E63 AMG as sports cars.

The Yaris GR is not a hot version of the Yaris. It's designed as a homologation special with a new chasis (there's no regular 3 door Yaris) and engine. Calling it a hot yaris is a bit like calling the Renault 5 Turbo a hot Renault 5.

The Corolla is closer to a hot Corolla as it uses the same chasis.

An electric Toyota Supra would easily outsell most Tesla's. It's a much nicer looking car than anything I've seen come from Tesla, the interior is so well done too.

It's a shame they've lost it.

The Toyota Supra looks nice but it only holds 2 people and has no cargo capacity. Sports cars like that will always be low-volume niche products regardless of whether they're electric or not.

I meant to say in the sports car category.

Tesla currently sells zero cars in the sports car category. I guess it could be possible for Toyota to outsell zero with an electric BMW Supra.

They don’t sell a sports car but they also kind of sell sports cars.

Everything they sell seems to be a bit if everything. I find their cars really ugly.

the Prius prime is a legitimately pretty great hybrid, but it took them a shocking long time to get there.

A hybrid car is a very complicated machine - more so than an EV, a turbo petrol or a diesel.

Turbos aren't very simple. The 'toyota synergy' style hybrid transaxle is a whole lot less complicated than most transaxles too. ICE cars already had an electric starter motor, so it's just adding a second electric motor and some batteries and a charging circuit.

The benefits are clear. Immense range, lower fuel consumption, longer maintenance intervals vs an ICE only, etc.

turbos are cheap and reliable, its very rare to see blown turbos on maintained non-modified cars with the exception of BMW putting them in the valley of the V8 engine and other idiotic designs.

Most turbo failures are from not doing oil changes on time or crappy modified ECU tunes.

ICE engines are incredible feats of engineering. Meanwhile, you need 2, maybe 3 parts to make an electric motor. They are dead simple. Even the control is just an inverter drive.

A turbo has about as many parts as the entire electric drivetrain. There's just a lot less to go wrong and you don't need lubrication or maintenance for solid-state non-moving parts.

I think maybe you are understating the complexity as "just an inverter drive" - highlighted by the fact so many telsas have had drive unit replacements.

right, but so are batteries and electric motors. hybrids give you a modest engine simplification and better efficiency at the cost of a second simpler type of engine.

The Prius has been around for over 20 years. They've had PLENTY of time to figure out how to make it not suck.

It's advantage for Toyota. They really should pushed PHEVs earlier like 2015, before Tesla M3 was sold.

The ability to go fast does not make it a good cars. In fact, this is mistake that many US carmakers made. As Toyota focused on reliability, their faster competitors ultimately ended up being abandoned since nothing turns away customers like a dead car.

You can compare Tesla to Hyundai. I was leaning towards Hyundai or a Kia last month, mainly because of Tesla stigma here.

After comparing price (Hyundai/Kia 10% more) and features (lol) Tesla is easily a winner. Sure it's not for everyone, but driving traditional car feels weird now. Car without an app or phone key just feels unbelievable.

Prius prime and rav4 prime are a thing.

Because there is very little point in making a battery powered car. Toyota was told the same thing but with diesel cars. In reality, all those went too far with diesel cars made a mistake. The story will repeat itself with battery cars.

but Toyota sells more cars in a year than Tesla has in the past decade? And no, if they made an EV it probably wouldn't be selling like hotcakes, because an EV is largely an irrational choice for most people (looking at you, guys chilling in your cars on top of the Target in Laurel Heights in SF, waiting for that 80% in 30 minutes) and Toyota isn't good at making something super desirable. All that aside, most workhorses running around today, shuttling passengers and food delivery seem to be old, clapped out Priuses. Can't argue with 45mpg and ultra low running costs, barring the occasional stolen catalytic converter.

Toyota sells more cars in a year than Tesla has in the past decade?

Well they'd just be even more dominate if they sold a fully EV corolla without all the "tech" BS every Tesla comes with.

But hydrogen cars are the future! /s

Hydrogen cars are the future. This is just another fad green movement in the car industry.

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