Hacker News Reader

Comment by photochemsyn | Hacker News Reader

[flagged]

The digital payments infrastructure in India has done more to bring more people into the banking system than what was possible earlier.

It is pervasive, ubiquitous and very user friendly.

This is all thanks to the mobile data revolution ushered in by the telecoms companies in India over the last decade and a half.

Yes, data privacy is a larger issue that needs to be addressed in India, but that is no different than other digital payment methods like credit/debit cards.

One less mentioned point is that this payments revolution has done a lot to cut the country's carbon-footprint in the form of driving to the ATM or bank to get cash for routine transactions. Also, UPI is extremely consumer-friendly. If you withdrew cash from another bank's ATM, you may be charged fees whereas UPI is free for transactions up to INR 100,000 (approx $1200 USD)/day. This covers almost all day-to-day transaction needs for people.

I can choose a third-party fintech company's UPI app (eg: PayTM, PhonePe etc.,) or my bank's UPI app. So, it is incredibly flexible.

How many hours a week was the average person spending driving to get cash?

During the rupee demonetization a few years back, getting cash required queueing up for hours. About the only silver lining of that whole debacle was the boost it gave to digital payments, because cash was so broken.

One could argue it was the other way round. It was done to break cash (since it cannot be tracked) and boost digital payments.

My data. Once a week, drive my car to the ATM 1.5 km away. 3 km roundtrip x 52 weeks/yr = approx. 156 km/yr.

My car gives a mileage economy of ~10 km/ltr of fuel. So around 15-16 litres of fuel burning avoided.

If I did half of these ATM stops during other trips, thats still 7 to 8 litres of fuel burning avoided.

How is it different from any digital payment? Many European countries and the US has been doing digital transactions for like 2 decades now. How was it not authoritarian then but suddenly when the Asian people do it, it's a way to track everything people does and not the simplest explanation which is it makes transactions easier?

> Many European countries and the US has been doing digital transactions for like 2 decades now. How was it not authoritarian

Many German people are still deeply distrusting of digital money transactions (keep in mind that there were two dictatorial regimes on German soil in the 20th century, of which one only ceased to exist little more than 30 years ago).

> How was it not authoritarian then but suddenly when the Asian people do it, it's a way to track everything people does

These people typically rather think that Asians should not make the same mistake (ignoring dangerous surveillance aspects).

And every non-citizen visitor to the US gets fingerprinted and photographed.

How's that for "land of the free", eh?

And while we're at it: every phone call in the US gets recorded and stored. That's what that big datacenter in Utah is for.

It's the land of the free, not the land of the unidentified! Even so, the extent to which living in the US is possible without various documents, and the lack of a unified national ID, makes the US a much milder environment in this regard than most of Europe. Yes, even healthcare: if you show some employment or other income, they will agree to ignore the absence of an SSN, for instance.

> and the lack of a unified national ID

Clearly you haven't heard of Real ID: https://www.dhs.gov/real-id

But it's not spying if we don't listen to it!

India outlawed the usage of any bill larger than the equivalent of a $US 5 (500-rupee and up) in 2016, which was intended to force people into the digital payments system. This is much more coercive than the Euro-US approach. For an overview and pro/con arguments in the global government-led war on cash:

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/021816/why-g...

It's also an attempt to collect a percentage of all transactions, which will be funneled to the usual suspects, here's what led to this:

> "NEW YORK, September 19, 2012 — The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, Citi, Ford Foundation, Omidyar Network, U.N. Capital Development Fund (UNCDF), U. S. Agency for International Development (USAID), and Visa Inc. announced today the launch of the Better Than Cash Alliance. The new initiative will call on governments, the development community and the private sector to adopt the use of electronic payments..."

Please do remember that the 500 and 1000 rupee notes were promptly replaced with a new 500 and 2000 rupee note series.

Moreover, it was not made illegal, rather it was no longer considered legal tender. A far cry from making it illegal.

There are on the other hand limits on the size of cash only transactions without a PAN Card (tax documentation)

Recently, the reserve bank has announced that it is going to withdraw the 2000 rupee note. That means that it will no longer print or issue via banks 2000 rupee notes.

They will still remain legal tender.

> They will still remain legal tender.

Until Sept 30th 2023. An individual may exchange up to 10 notes (INR 20,000 per day) for cash between now and Sept 30th or deposit it into their account (no limit -- but be prepared to answer the taxman if there are enquiries next year on your tax return seeking the source of funds for the deposit).

How is "illegal" and "no longer considered legal tender" different?

Regardless of the intentions, I don't see how banning people from using currency notes that they legally owned is not dictatorial. Why is using cash deemed guilty before even having any evidence.

Illegal: you get arrested for possession.

Not legal tender: you cannot pay taxes with it, and generally cannot use in monetary transactions.

Agree with the definitions. I guess the OP meant it like "not allowed to use" rather than actually getting arrested for possession.

Indian rupees arent even a convertible currency...

Wrong. An older series of currency notes were replaced by newer notes. Nothing was outlawed.

It was then, and now that we know how easily it is to abuse anyone following that lead must tacitly accept that it will be abused similarly unless explicitly implemented not to - which isn’t the case here.

It’s just another extension of “we have to do this cause everyone else is and if we don’t we’ll be more vulnerable” which is from what I can tell the root of all evil.

It's authoritarian here as well, who said the opposite? Digital payments are a privacy nightmare.

As a Berliner: I would be fine to share my data and see ads if I get UPI in exchange

There are no ads. There aren't even transaction fees, for now.

I've used both the US and Indian versions and the US version is pretty much stuck 20 years behind. It's very very bad in terms of UX and security

>> US has been doing digital transactions for like 2 decades now

Yeah, just recently did a digital transaction in the US (ACH). Took 2 weeks for money to arrive.

> but suddenly when the Asian people do it

As a "brown person", I resent this attempt at weaponizing racism just for the benefit of making your argument. Not only does it make your argument look petty and weak, but it actually damages the real efforts to battle true racism in the US. Please stop.

> As a "brown person", I resent this attempt at weaponizing racism just for the benefit of making your argument.

Pointing out double standards and hypocrisy is not weaponising racism.

> but it actually damages the real efforts to battle true racism in the US.

Why is this something an Asians in Asia should concern themselves with?

In my ancestral village, before cashless payments the nearest bank was 5 miles away in the district/county headquarters. If you needed to take out cash or deposit a paycheck, you'd need to ride a bike or take a bus or walk over potholed roads to get to that bank which was staffed with lazy employees who'd take chai+nashta breaks all the time.

With the proliferation of cashless payment options, it's much easier now to deposit a paycheck or buy groceries in these small towns and villages.

I hate how India delivers competent public services. It is oppressive & authoritarian.

The oppressive Indian Railways make it difficult to move around in the nation, while the amazing private network of high speed trains in the US is lightyears ahead.

I love the complex tax code of USA. An incompetent govt like India's would never be able to produce software as pleasing to use as Turbotax.

Allowing private companies to monopolize public contracts is great for the health of the nation. Pizza for school lunches is why Americans dominate sports around the world.

India should take inspiration from the free nation of USA. No surveillance here. What is a Snow den ?

>"where every transaction you ever partake in is authorised and recorded by a privately run commercial bank"

Isn't it the same in The West bar cash transaction?

>"If such a bank does not like an enterprise – such as Wikileaks – it can just freeze it out"

Same question again. For example in Canada they did just that during tracker's convoy.

I am not telling we are at their level (yet) but the direction ever country seems to be moving in looks like for more government / big corps spying and control.

I think there is a rather large class of people who are just fine with oppressive regimes, as long as it doesn't affect them. The pretense is always "reducing crime".

This includes a lot of self-proclaimed pro-freedom types, as well. They'll support an oppressive regime so long as their own freedoms aren't restricted, and the problem grows.

It's like 1984 pERwKhkqvqM

Please stop pushing these baseless conspiracies.

The Indian government has no reason to track 500 million people in India, it would be more data than they would be able to handle.

Also most people don't care enough about this, yet the RBI is thinking about adding anonymity to UPI.

"The RBI may also test anonymity, security and privacy related to digital currency, It is possible to get a legal provision to ensure anonymity."

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/gadgets-news/heres-what-...

I really don't think there is anything like "too much data to handle" in the year 2023. The denizens of /r/datahoarder and /r/homelab probably have enough to do it, much less a government organization.

Not that I particularly agree with the GP, but storing data isn't the hard part.

> Indian (or any) government has no reason to track 500 million people

LOL, don't tell me you are from a technical background

???

This isn't an argument.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com