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Comment by gizmo | Hacker News Reader

The "sustainable" and "environment friendly" choice for headphones are wired headphones that are built like a brick. A good pair will last basically forever.

Of course that isn't the market these headphones are in, but that's also the problem. New bluetooth standard? New advances in noise-cancellation? You won't get them. Even if these headphones are great (which I doubt) they're still destined for the garbage heap.

Wireless headphones last a couple of years, where wired headphones last decades. These products won't be the exception, and the marketing angle (fair! environmentally friendly! repairable!) annoys me.

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I work at Fairphone but am not at all involved with the headphones. Still, I know that this is an issue that we thought about and address.

Headphones should keep working even if the manufacturer goes bust and stops providing software support. And even if your battery dies and spare parts are unavailable. That is precisely the reason why we also sell a cable with a 3.5mm jack for these cans. That way, this product is long-lasting and sustainable even in the (hopefully hypothetical) case that we are not able to support them anymore.

That is the best out of both worlds: you get wireless connectivity and ANC now. And you will be able to use them for as long as you would with wired ones.

Fairphone 4 doesn't have a 3.5 mm jack beacuse reasons. So much for sustainability.

what's the issue here? if you buy large headphones from the same company you buy the your phone from, in a future where fairphone no longer exists (which playing the odds, is likely) at some point your also no-longer-supported phone (which functionally becomes slower every year because mobile application hardware requirements appear to double every year) might advance to support new fancy bluetooth things your headphones don't support?

I honestly (not hyperbolicly) don't see how a phone not having a 3.5mm jack is relevant to the headphones _having_ a 3.5mm jack

If the headphones are meant to be used with the phone, then the idea that the headphones are future-proofed because they have a 3.5mm jack is pretty meaningless if you can't connect them to the phone with that jack.

In 2023, most people who give two shits about running wired headphones are using a USB DAC, even if their phone has a 3.5mm socket as the onboard AD/DA chipset is usually mediocre and struggles to drive most high-end cans.

It's not about high-end or whatever. It's about whether these headphones are going to be usable at all in 5 years' time.

And they will be if they're sound in terms of construction and somebody is willing to spend a few dollars on a USB DAC.

By your same logic, if you need to use dongles with a brand new MacBook, today, is the MacBook thus not useable?

I see the small number of ports and reliance on dongles as a big mark against the MacBook's sustainability, yes.

If ultimately you still need to plug something in, what makes it less sustainable exactly?

(I don't use a MacBook in 2023)

It’s simplicity I terms of construction and standard. Here, the older standard (3.5mm jack) seems stronger (not an expert but an user opinion) and easier to source than usb c.

If you can't use thing A with thing B unless you also have thing C, to my mind that obviously reduces the expected lifetime of being able to use the combination, especially when thing C is a third party part.

Generic usb-c to 3.5mm adapter for a few dollars, stick it on the end of the cable and leave it there. Problem solved.

The only person that I've ever seen do that had to replace his USB socket after a few months. It turns out that USB C is not designed for long term constant torque being applied, as is the case when it has a dongle attached constantly in a pocket bouncing around. Perhaps if someone sold a dongle that sits flush with the device, and is secured such that no force is transferred to the socket, that would help.

The dongle solution seems to only be good for sitting at a desk. Not for a device that is literally called "a mobile".

The headphones also work over a USB-C cable.

Planned obsolescence can be a good thing. Cans from the fifties and sixties still work. Nobody wants to use them; they are heavy, uncomfortable, have poor performance, need an amp to drive, and use huge old school connectors. They are from a time when music was enjoyed seated in one place.

Products that fail prematurely or wear out while the owner still wants them are poorly designed. The pinnacle of design is a product that works flawlessly until the day you are through with it, at which point every part fails simultaneously. Such a product wasted no excess material in being over-engineered, nor consumed exotic high performance materials when they were unwarranted, nor repair visits, nor extra fuel in transport.

> The pinnacle of design is a product that works flawlessly until the day you are through with it

Indeed, but for maximum utility, the second hand market is included in the "you" here. Things can continue to be useful to someone long after the first owner is through with them.

Fair, I should probably say "the public" instead of "you". Many things enjoy a long second-hand life before the public's appetite for the product is gone.

> Cans from the fifties and sixties still work. Nobody wants to use them; they are heavy, uncomfortable, have poor performance, need an amp to drive, and use huge old school connectors. They are from a time when music was enjoyed seated in one place.

And there is still a market for them because some people still want to enjoy music seated and do nothing else at the same time. Of course, plenty more people want something else.

By "huge old school connectors" I assume you mean the 1/4 inch TRS connector? Which is still totally normal on non-cheap headphones?

More like 5 pin DIN connectors (MIDI) but different. If you take a lot at old electronics you will see things for the first time.

I've had a ton of old headphones and I've never seen something like a 5 pin DIN connector. The old IBM keyboards do use a 5 pin DIN though.

Old keyboards in general if I remember correctly, and mice.

Keyboards yes, mice no. XT and AT keyboards had a big DIN plug until the PS/2 popularized mini DIN for both keyboard and mouse.

But in the XT/AT days mice just connected to the serial port with a 9 pin D sub. Mice weren't all that common in those days anyway as most programs were still text based.

Wouldn't that be too big? A typical failure point of all my wired headphones/buds has been the connector or whatever the connector plugs into. A bigger connector creates more leverage, which in turn creates more force, which has been a problem. So for mobile usage, wireless audio seems to just eliminate a whole range of problems and failure points, so it's not all good to use physical connectors?

Connectors break because the materials are cheap, not the force per se. Size doesn’t really matter.

Planned obsolescence isn't a good thing, it means that the thing will fall apart far sooner than it should. What you mean is simple engineering: the product's lifespan is not being artificially, consciously limited. They might think that you won't need it long, and plan for that, by choosing materials, construction methods etc accordingly, but this is not planned obsolescence.

> Nobody wants to use them; they are heavy, uncomfortable, have poor performance, need an amp to drive, and use huge old school connectors.

Are you thinking of Stax electrostatic headphones? That describes them, but they can sound amazing and people definitely still use them.

60s headphones used the same jacks we have now, but they don't last forever and the plastics then weren't as comfortable as the ones now.

I think planned obsolescence can be a not-bad thing if the obsolescence phase is actually planned.

Is the product going to be trashed? Is it made of recyclable materials? Does it have materials in it that are hazardous to the environment? Can it be easily disassembled so those materials can be processed differently?

>The pinnacle of design is a product that works flawlessly until the day you are through with it

What about the 2nd, 3rd, etc user of the item? You're ignoring the second hand market.

I use Cameras that were made in the 30's, they still work despite the original user being "through with it" some time ago.

Not everyone wants to go jogging or working out with wired headphones. They always rub on your skin or on your clothes (especially in winter with may thick layers) with the rubbing sound transferring in your ears as you move around, or worse, snag on something and keep tugging down on my head giving me a bad neck posture (when the cable is routed under my shirt/jaket).

The freedom of TWS earbuds can spoil you for life.

Why don't we make TWS manufacturers to build their shit with replaceable cells? Most have normal Varta lithium cells inside. Surely they can make them replaceable the same way they are on the AirTags? They would be a bit bulkier and have less water resistance but I don't go swimming with them and as long as there's no cables I'm happy to tolerate a bulkier size.

I second this. After trying with many different kinds, it's just too big a hassle. Clips at strategic places can help, yet only work so long. Eventually something will snag and the headphones will break. Separate, wireless buds are significantly more comfortable.

I use Airpods most of the time but wired headphones on my desktop because bluetooth is so broken on desktops. Going back to the wired headphones feels like wearing a leash tied to my desk. Want to just go grab a drink from the fridge but I have to mute myself, take them off, then undo it all when I come back.

I'm not sure TWS buds with the shape of an AirTag would work, but I do think they could make them with something like an easily removable cap on the stem that holds the cell in place.

>TWS buds with the shape of an AirTag

You missed the point. The target wasn't to shape the earbuds like the AirTags but to allow the user to unscrew the lithium cell like it's possible on the AirTags.

Microsoft was planning earbuds with a big round shape. I don't think they actually ever materialized though.

I have these Shure SE215 in-ear monitors that detach from the cable using the MMCX standard. If a wire breaks, it's cheap to swap out, I can swap from a 3.5mm to a usbc to Bluetooth. There are probably other earbuds that use the standard too (I think there are a few standards?)

But ultimately this means, as long as I don't lose them I can repair/replace the wire as needed.

I have a similar model and the wire swapping capability has saved them from the trash a couple times. The first time, they got sucked into a vacuum cleaner after only having them for two years or so. The second time, a dog chewed them severely. The in-ear monitor parts still have dog bite marks, but they work just fine. I guess I’ve had them about 15 years now, and they still sound excellent.

> New bluetooth standard? New advances in noise-cancellation? You won't get them.

> Wireless headphones last a couple of years, where wired headphones last decades.

Those wired headphones that last decades also won't get any advances made during their lifetime...

I've had a pair of Sennheiser HD280s for at least a decade. Honestly, they don't need advances. They still work perfectly. The foam wore off the band, but I replaced it. For my application, batteries and bluetooth would cause a lot more problems than they solve. For my use case, they're basically perfect.

Many IEM earpieces can be disconnected from the cable, so you can switch out between a wired connection and a bluetooth adapter (or replace/repair those as needed, while keeping the drivers). I don't use bluetooth headphones, but it seems like an okay compromise.

I will say that going direct isn't without problems, though. I can't tell you how many adapters and dongles I've lost. At this point it feels like a wash with how much ends up in a landfill. I'd love for everything to support 3.5mm but that's not the world we live in.

But "repairable" and "upgradable" are not synonyms. I don't mind that my phone isn't upgradable, but I'd like to be able to easily change the battery when it dies of old age.

Okay but tell that to the mad lads that put an 11th gen processor (and complete custom motherboard) in the ThinkPad T60 from 2006: https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/tdfea2/t700_crowd...

Eh. I've had to do more fiddling with my wired headphones (Sennheiser 380's) and replace the jack and wire more than once. I have had them for over a decade. My wireless set is a pair of quietcomfort 35's I got in 2026.. They've aged remarkably well, but I did have to replace the ear foam for both sets these years.

So, I have been served wel by both.

Same. Ear pads and cable are consumables. Especially the latter rarely lasted more than a year back when I was actually using headphones 12h a day on average.

Thankfully, replacing cables on big headphones is a fitting challenge for newbies as soldering.

> My wireless set is a pair of quietcomfort 35's I got in 2026

We’ve found the time traveler!

All true. I buy some of the cheapest Bluetooth headphones available. After all, what's the selling point of Bluetooth. Audio quality. Protocol quality. No, it's convenience. That's it.

Encouraging to see some auto manufacturers calling out touchscreens. The marketing for so-called "tech" is some of the worst I have ever seen. The "technology" is half-baked.

There's technology and then there's just data collection and surveillance, aka "tech". The later needs non-stop hype. No wonder it's goal is planned obsolescence. The stuff is not high quality. Never was and never will be.

My phone doesn’t have a port for your 20 year old headphones

Mine does because I considered that when I bought it.

Im so sad my Sennheiser headphones from ~2001 are slowly deteriorating, and the parts are no longer available! There is an updated version that they still sell the parts for, but the specific ones I need are different. Still I believe Sennheiser is really good compared to an industry average in providing spare parts.

> Wireless headphones last a couple of years

That makes no sense; why would they only last a couple years? I've had a pair of Bose QC35 for 5 years now, and they're still working great and are compatible with any devices I used them with, from 10 year old laptops to recent Android and Apple phones.

Ancient outdated bluetooth standards will still play the sound.

While burning through the battery in under 72 minutes, and require you to stay within 3 meters of the phone, and will lose connection if the phone goes into your back pocket. I've got three pairs of wireless headphones that all suffer these three traits.

My daughter's modern Sennheiser headphones though, work across the house, through two walls. And the battery literally lasts over eight hours, for all I know it might have lasted another eight. Seriously impressive.

i've never had a pair of wired headphones last more than ~2 years

i usually buy cheap wired ear buds that i can listen to while i walk to work

If you only ever buy cheap disposable earbuds, they’ll never last very long.

Nice headphones can last a decade or more, and be made of entirely user-serviceable parts.

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