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Comment by Night_Thastus | Hacker News Reader

You're looking at it a bit backwards.

This is not "employees are greedy, want money for nothing". This is a case of "employees barely paid enough to get food each week, survive off tips".

People forget that minimum wage comes out to around $15k a year. Even $15 an hour is only $30k. In almost all of the country, that's not enough for the cheapest rent, upkeep on a cheap car, food, taxes and other bills.

Excessive tips are the only way a lot of people working in the service industry survive at all.

I hate it, it's a sucky system. I would much rather have their wages be higher and the base product go up a bit in price and then remove tipping from most of these industries altogether. But that's just not happening.

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I think you're misinterpreting GP's intention. People generally don't want the tips to be gone so that they pay less. People want the tips to be included in the price so that when they buy something they know how much they're paying.

In the current system restauranteurs skimp on wages because they know workers make up for it with tips and hence are willing to work for dirt-cheap wages. But it's not like the restaurant business actually benefit from it, because supply and demand is still determined by how much patrons pay in total. If they charge more up front (along with everyone else), and just give a larger portion to workers, they'll still make the same amount of money.

We're stuck in a shitty local minimum that benefits nobody.

> ... supply and demand is still determined by how much patrons pay in total. If they charge more up front (along with everyone else), and just give a larger portion to workers, they'll still make the same amount of money.

I don't think I agree with this. I believe it's a form of psychological manipulation where you get a foot in the door by offering lower upfront prices and then guilt people into paying more. Same reason why car dealerships try to sell you on a million add-ons.

Or the version in take away business, the hidden packaging charge.

I don't think so.

I'll put the food in a bag, grab my napkins and parmesan packets, and ring myself up. Then I'll tip myself the 20% or whatever ridiculous margin multiplied by my already overly-inflated bill.

That employee doesn't do anything for me. She does many things for the sake of the restaurant, but not a single thing for me that I need or care about.

As a bystander to the employment relationship, it's not my role to provide the economic solution here. But I'm happy to tip for service. Turn the tables and I'm happy to hold the damn door open with a smile for $10. I'd do that all day long since that's a fantastic payoff for the effort required. I'd hold the door open anyway because it's the thing to do.

It's definitely a bit messed up but tipping is all that keeps many rural restaurants alive. Without tipping there is no way to asymmetrically reap from rich and poor and you need both.

I don’t know how much their wages are to calculate their pay discrepancy that their employers are cheating them nor do I have their income statements. The employers’ responsibility is being put on to the customers. And then the customers are the assholes for guessing wrong.

Its not that employers are cheating them- Thats the job and what it pays. Most waiters/waitresses are payed below minimum wage and make up the difference with tips. Its something like $3/hr on average, its even accounted for in the tax code.

Is this your fault that the industry as a whole legally shifts that responsibility onto the consumer? Definitely not! Does that make a person an asshole for knowingly paying less? Yes.

And the difference in their pay and minimum wage is? And the difference between their pay and living wage is? Maybe the employee it’s well compensated?

Again, the customer is asked to guess the restaurant’s payroll and make up the difference with the market wage. How does one know if they are paying too little? Or too much? Or just right? Maybe customers don’t want to play the guessing game.

Pay a competitive livable wage and raise the prices on the menu for the customer to determine the value of the product and stop asking/begging for tips. Done!

Customers dont have to guess, just pay the 15% and leave. Thats just the standard.

If a company chooses to pay more, their prices go up and they cant compete. Even though its just shifting the cost from a hidden to a declared one, its enough where restaurants struggle and either abandon the model or go out of business. Its an industry problem that needs to be fixed at that level, you cant just say "Go out of business, Done!" as thats not a realistic solution.

> Most waiters/waitresses are payed below minimum wage and make up the difference with tips.

It's slightly more complicated: hourly wage is the greater of ($3 + tips) or (standard minimum wage). So, the effective minimum wage is still the standard minimum wage.

> Excessive tips are the only way a lot of people working in the service industry survive at all.

When the topic comes up on Reddit the people overwhelmingly against getting rid of tipping are waiters. Heck, bartenders are even more vehemently against the idea.

They're against the idea because a world where they get that pay consistently instead of by tips seems fictional. People who advocate for getting rid of tipping sound like they're trying to take away a good chunk of their income.

Plus, instead of thinking about potentially low tipping periods and how averages work, they think about missing out on that sweet $300 tip they might make at some point if they get lucky.

Respectfully, I would disagree. If you leave loose change in a Parisian bar, the waiter will run after you on the street that you forgot your money. No-tip culture absolutaly can work, look at France and Japan, among many others. Still they are renowned for their restaurant culture.

I'm not saying it can't work, I'm just explaining the current state of affairs in the US w/regards to tipping.

It's because they don't know any better.

> Excessive tips are the only way a lot of people working in the service industry survive at all.

Not in Europe

Why is it then that we leave the greatest tips at the fanciest restaurants? Shouldn't it be reversed? We leave $5 tips at diners but we leave $100+ tips at Michelin star restaurants.

Because people aren't logical. Tipping is not a scientific, carefully crafted way of doing things. It's culture and social behavior mixed together over many, many years.

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