Same thing happens with the gas stove threads. I can’t believe that actual people are that invested in burning hydrocarbons.
Also the power goes out at my house about 2x a year when we have windstorms. The stove still works, induction doesn't. So I can still cook and make coffee. My other option would be to use my grill in that situation. I like having backups.
It's not some conspiracy with me, I just didn't like it as much. There are dozens of us.
I also ran an experiment a few years back with some particulate sensors. I noticed when measuring during wild fire smoke the particulates went way up when I cooked bacon. So I did it again on a hot plate not gas. Same thing. The bacon grease and cooking itself was giving off a ton of particulates. To me the lesson was maybe cook outdoors. Or figure out how to plumb a vent through an upstairs living space attic and roof to vent outside.
I've also been hesitant on electric cars. My friend has an original roadster that I've driven several times. It's great even tho I can't even get out of it because of my size. However I go out to ski and road trip a lot. I constantly am evaluating if an ev is ready for that use, it's getting closer but not yet. The ski hills I go to are near range for a EV and the charging spots are all taken as are all the spots so that's a risk. Camping and backpacking is more iffy. There was charging at Yellowstone in a few spots but I doubt they ran it to mowich lake yet.
But the kicker is I just have several old cars (08) that are in great shape and I hate all the shit on new cars when I rent them. There's a few features that are great like the anti-tbone feature, and some backup cameras. But he'll they used to beep whenever someone was near you, or they freak out when your 5 feet from a hedge when parking moving .2 mph and slam on the brakes, or the infotainment system is slow, crashes, and has no buttons. So I'll just hold while those bugs are worked out. I think these cars may all get to 20 years easily.
I’m guessing this might be a temperature dependent issue. I enjoy using a cast iron to brown meats, but I really dial it back in homes without true range hoods (e.g. they vent back indoors). If I go for maybe 25% browning, I can massively reduce the smoke. It feels a shame to not do a steak to perfection, but when I’ll prefer that to venting the whole place for an hour.
Anyway it's pretty easy to play around with. I didn't save the data anywhere unfortunately.
Huh? Why would this be necessary? Just use the range hood that should already be installed and should vent to the outside. Are these not required in your country for some strange reason?
Yeah, it's weird, right? Why _are_ people so invested in burning natgas and coal and other hydrocarbons for large-scale power generation when a plethora of proven near-zero-emissions alternatives exist?
From a climate-change perspective, banning natgas cookstoves is a few pennies saved on like a thousand dollar expenditure. It's similar to the performative "charging for plastic takeaway bags" and "not bringing out table water" nonsense that California likes to do from time to time... it's way easier than making a real dent in the underlying problem, it inconveniences a ton of people (so they know you're doing something), and because "something" has been done, enough of those people don't bother finding out about and loudly and continually agitating for making a real dent in the underlying problem.
One way or the other, it needs to go away. It's not performative, it's necessary for achieving long-term emissions goals, and it's low-hanging fruit.
Sure, agreed.
> It's not performative...
Right now it very much is because, as you say:
> ...it's low-hanging fruit.
As I said:
> ...banning natgas cookstoves is a few pennies saved on like a thousand dollar expenditure.
and
> [Low-impact, high-visibility stuff like that is done because] it's way easier than making a real dent in the underlying problem
If you'll pardon the mixed metaphors: When it comes to environmental stuff, a lot of the time, the low-hanging fruit isn't worth picking because the high-hanging fruit is the thing that's the immediate wildfire hazard.
Precluding new residential infrastructure is high-hanging fruit. It precludes leaky infrastructure.
Your argument basically boils down to “I’m in debt and need to start spending thousands of dollars less. Cutting out this completely unnecessary expenditure will only save me a few dollars so I shouldn’t cut out this completely unnecessary expense because it won’t save me all the thousands I need to save”.
Sure it's good you have less debt but while you were resolving the small loan you were racking up massive interest on the big one
It is still good to fix if it contributes to a significant amount of warming, but it isn't cumulative like CO2: it eventually degrades in the atmosphere.
...into CO2
And banning natural gas piped infrastructure is an easy win.
1. No one is banning natural gas stoves. You can still use a natural gas stove. You just need to bring your own cylinder like most of the world and half the food YouTubers already do.
2. Natural gas stoves have significant indoor pollution impact. It’s a huge benefit even outside the climate change side.
3. Natural gas infrastructure is expensive, dangerous and unnecessary. Cities will benefit from the removal of all those pipes from under their streets even if climate change wasn’t a thing.
Banning gas hookups is such an obvious win (again, for those who want, gas stoves are still available with a cylinder), it’s remarkable to see the level of status quo bias that exists.
It’s been used and operated safely for hundreds of years in cities on the East Coast. The idea that it’s dangerous is simply FUD to scare people into spending $1000 on a future piece of e-waste to cook their food.
Although the right to repair movement seems to be making some headway recently, so maybe all is not lost. Touch screens (with no alternative), and subscription service shoehorns need the same treatment, ban them.
EDIT: would probably be a political nightmare to implement though…
But, coil-based electric tops are an embarassment for anyone that sells them, installs them, and "uses" them.
I expect natural gas for heating will be the long pole of greenhouse gas emissions. Eventually we'll have to disassemble what we already have. For some areas, it may make sense to do that soon.
Boston, for example, has old and leaky natural gas pipes that have been found to be leaking tons of methane into the atmosphere and causing occasional explosions. The city will probably have to invest billions of dollars into repairing its natural gas distribution pipes in the next 10-20 years, which would remain in use for 50-60 years more.
Or, they could spend a bit more money, convert everyone to induction cooktops and heat pumps, and get rid of the natural gas altogether.
In theory they are supposed to be reusable but in practice I think they are going to wind up being single-use for most people. Maybe we'll start using them as garbage bags as they accumulate around the house.
(When paper bags aren't available. I've always preferred paper.)
Product packaging probably generates 1-2 orders of magnitude more waste than the bags holding the product.
That's the part I struggle with.
Also, if you order groceries for delivery, they bring your order in reusable bags. Which you then keep.
My point is these re-usable bags have a tendency to accumulate over time. Maybe not at the same rate as plastic bags would otherwise, but once you have dozens of these bags at home it starts to be tempting to just use them as bin liners and toss them, just like we did with plastic bags
Which sort of defeats the whole purpose, right? The ideal is people would buy as many as they need and use them for years.
But that isn't going to happen any time soon imo. If ever.
My biggest problem is feeling awkward when I take a bag from store X into store Y.
How much of that makes it into the pan, and how much is waste heat?
The practical effect is food spends less time steaming, so for example, a stir fry doesn’t come out soggy and unappetizing.
Meanwhile most of the energy from my electric stove actually makes it into my pan instead of out a vent or into my kitchen.
I do not have the problem you are describing.
> Gas is superior to all forms of electric in recovery time.
This is really going to be dependent on which stoves we are comparing, along with the type of pan being used.
> There simply is /more energy/ in a cubic foot of gas compared to what a home electric circuit can deliver in the same time frame. It’s science, plain and simple.
Science as I alluded to in my previous comment, would account for waste heat. Which is where a significant amount of the energy of a gas stove goes.
We’re talking about appliances here, OP was comparing a high end gas stove’s output to electric. My point is that my couple hundred dollar unit can replicate many of the things OP was claiming you’d need to buy a $5,000-$10,000 gas stove for (though I am in no way suggesting that these are equivalent in functionality to each other).
But the thing about a cheap gas stove is that it performs as well as a high end one, at least for a one person household like mine. If I'd invest in induction it would all get much more expensive to get the same performance.
Edit: Look, I don’t mean to come across as though I have an issue with your budget or choices, but you’re derailing a conversation that was in response to someone claiming that electric was inferior specifically in comparison to high end gas stoves. Your $300 range isn’t going to put out the 15-25k Btus that OP was talking about, which was why I made the comparison to a relatively less expensive induction device. I personally use that device for a significant amount of my cooking as I rent a unit that only has an underpowered 2 burned stove.
Resistive or induction?
Huge win for whom?
> but the gas industry spends heavily on propaganda to convince people otherwise:
Propaganda goes both ways.
Us. We can make electricity from lots of things and turns out in about 10 years a lot of it will be made from renewables in most countries, and the trend is only going one way.
There's a reason there is a push to electrify everything.
I'm guessing you have some other view from your comment, please explain.
The fact that NY’s decision to ban gas hookups in new buildings is being framed as banning gas stoves is in itself the result of gas industry propaganda. In fact, Gas stoves are the one thing that can easily be continued because people can use gas cylinders.
Edit: why am I being downvoted? Is it not a legitimate question to ask why not go all the way with converting to electric when appliances exist for all three use cases? Do my farts stink too bad?
Stoves don't matter in the big picture here, they are secondary to whatever people are already doing for heat.
Also this isn't about replacing a working stove in an existing building it's about substituting electric versions for gas versions if there are no gas lines, so I think you missed the entire context of the thread.
Ever heard of "the status quo"?
If my stuff is dominant, I either say nothing or make it so that any other proposal looks like it's new and risky or crazy. You know, FUD.
Propaganda has a lifecycle. Not every kind of propaganda is the same or as obvious.
And you're falling for the fossil fuel one, good job!
Most people would understand those two phrases to mean the same thing.
Is there any other kind of propaganda?
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10473289.1992.10...
And yes most people here use it for cooking and hot water only. I spend like a tenner on gas each month.
Once you've tried induction, going back to gas feels absolutely primitive.
Induction only works when the pan is on it by definition.
Induction is amazing for some things, but for some other things I prefer gas.
Given the choice, I'd have some kind of combination of gas and induction. Maybe half and half?
If I had a choice I wouldn’t use gas for a few reasons. Air quality, the amount of water that gets released and fire hazard. Seen too many buildings explode on tv lol.
But they do not work well (or at all) when a pad is moved around a lot, or it has a rounded bottom like a Wok or Karahi. At least the ones ive used don't. You are also reliant on the designers to give enough heat levels to actually cook properly and to provide a generally usable device that is fit for purpose. None of these things are an issue with even the cheapest gas stoves.
Having a both would be perfect. Just one or two gas burners for frying would be fine.
The Bosch one probably would have worked fine but for whatever reason it wasn't the look the spouse wanted.
Even though I was fully onboard I could see the specific pan thing annoying some dedicated gas people.
I’m back to gas and no longer have people boiling water so I can boil water.
Most of the world does that.
Of course, what actually serious chefs find is that once the subsidy for gas is removed (by removing legislation requiring utilities and buildings to provide piped natural gas), not only are induction stoves much more effective, cook faster, etc., they also keep their kitchens incredibly cool and make them much better work environments than having a bunch of gas burners around.
For the restaurants that need woks they can use a gas stove and have a gas cylinder shipped in every morning.
1) Wok cooking, can’t use a round bottomed wok easily or create “wok hei”. Though you can also do it with a blowtorch: https://www.seriouseats.com/hei-now-youre-a-wok-star-a-fiery...
2) Causing childhood asthma. Gotta employ all those healthcare workers somehow…
Previous Serious Eats articles about it even cited the lack of performance from gas stoves and recommended modifying one with a Wok Mon, but even then the results weren't perfect.
Edit: For some reason I feel the need to clarify that this isn't a comment in support of, or against, gas stoves. I just like cooking and am aware of how hard it is to achieve quality wok hei at home.
Tabletop induction burners that use standard outlets are way more cost effective than induction ranges, too. That thing is $200, which didn’t even pay the electrician bill to put in the 240V 50A outlet and circuit for my range.