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Comment by hutzlibu | Hacker News Reader

"if lobbying was illegal with very harsh punishment"

I suppose you mean professional lobbying, with the purpose of influencing laws to make money?

Because when a environmental group tries to block some dirty mining project for example, than this is also lobbying. It is just people using influence. You cannot really make that illegal.

You can force the parties involved for transparency and punish bribery, but you cannot make it illegal for people to talk to politicians.

Even when it is done "professional". The problem in reality is, that when you look closely, in effect lots of lobbying is indeed bribery. (most of the indirect kind, like informal promising lucrative jobs after their terms are over, or giving overpaid talks). And that is and remains illegal.

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>Because when a environmental group tries to block some dirty mining project

Which is also usually driven by financial interests under cover of virtue. It is most obvious in Europe where many people now have become multi millionaires, largely of government imposed enrichment schemes.

"where many people now have become multi millionaires, largely of government imposed enrichment schemes."

Can you cite concrete examples?

I would imagine lobbying to enact a higher barrier to entry through regulation to reduce potential entrants to an existing market.

So far, I have never before seen an environment group trying to block a mining project referred to as "lobbying". Is the term really that generally used in practice?

Media focuses on the corrupt side of lobbying because it sells rage clicks.

The fact is without the non-corrupt side of lobbying, the lawyers whom make up most of the legislature wouldn't have the first clue how their legislation interacts with complex industry specific real world systems.

Lobbying in exchange for any kind of favor (money, influence, etc.) should be illegal. Why would you want to focus on the almost inconsequential lobbying "for free" regular people can do, instead of the society-changing lobbying "for money" that is accessible only to the advantage of a few?

Lobbying for money is a form of legalized corruption, almost identical in form and function to the illegal one, except designed to protect those who already have a lot of money and power from any legal consequences.

Hiring someone to lobby on my behalf is an important part of our political process. If there’s an issue I care about, my ability to show up at a random time in DC to lobby “for free” should not be my only recourse.

If I donate money to the EFF or Louis Rossmann for a cause I care about, that should not block them from lobbying on my behalf.

Everyone complains about professional lobbying that they don’t like. That’s hardly shocking.

> Everyone complains about professional lobbying that they don’t like.

I think you picked the laziest understanding of both the issue and my answer, and made my point in the process.

I'm not talking about you paying someone to represent your ideas to lawmakers, regulators, judges, etc. but about paying those people to directly enact your interests. They're both big problems in their own way. Straight up buying laws or legal decisions happens even if the incentives move from the interest groups to the decision factors through so many lobbying laundromats that they look completely clean and disconnected.

The other problem is not better. As you confirm, real representation in democracy is not with your vote but your donation power. Even when your chosen lobbyist isn't buying anything directly, just having a voice and representation takes money rather than a vote. The EFF or Louis Rossmann have to struggle so much to be heard because other people pay more to be louder. If you have problems being heard for money, imagine the people hoping to be heard for free.

The large majority of people can only spend one vote every few years to choose a representation that a small minority will spend a lot of money to hijack: either drown out everyone else's voice, or directly purchase exactly what they want. If you can't see why "everyone complains" maybe you're too disconnected from the problem to even understand it.

People complain because it links your net worth to how much you are represented which is anti-democratic.

This is simply bullshit.

Congress can simply bring people to testify in the open instead of cowering in the shadows like they do now.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobbying

“Lobbying, which usually involves direct, face-to-face contact in cooperation with support staff that may not meet directly face-to-face, is done by many types of people, associations and organized groups, including individuals on a personal level in their capacity as private citizens, it is also practiced by corporations in the private sector serving their own interests, by non-profits and non-governmental organizations in the voluntary sector, by fellow legislators or government officials influencing each other through legislative affairs (legislative assistance) in the public sector, and by advocacy groups (interest groups).”

Selectively forgot this part:

> is the act of lawfully

Just because something is lawful doesn't make it good or desirable. I'm sure you can think of many historical examples of lawful actions that are now considered a crime. The opposite is also true.

Many laws are a product of the time they were written and in turn, a product of the people who have written them. Why is lobbying legal in the USA? Why is it coded in law? These are genuine questions that people can and should ask.

It’s a very important distinction, if lobbying is not lawful lobbyists are crooks. If it is lawful it’s just a practice that does not agree with your personal preference.

The idea that lobbyists are ‘the man’ corruptly influencing bent politicians is tiresome and to paint it as the truth is not productive. If you want to stop lobbying vote for politicians that want to stop it or run for office yourself. However once you are in office you might note why it exists, as did many before you.

But if the lobbying laws have been passed by the people who were previously unlawfully doing lobbying then what kind of validaty do they have to begin with?

I mean to me the big issue is that these are laws that corrupt democracy (in the sense that they benefit the few powerful over the many powerless). And your solution of "just vote them out" is not really feasible because both democrats and Republicans (the only two realistic options you have given the electoral system) are pro lobbying!

But is the general population in favour of lobbying? I don't know but I don't think so.

I personally advocate for a new way of doing politics altogether. As I don't think the current system really works well to properly channel the will of the majority of the people in responsible ways.

And lobbying is much, much stricter in pretty much every other country in the world. So the US is an outlier here.

It’s not possible to ‘unlawfully do lobbying’ if by definition lobbying is ‘the act of lawfully …’. You are describing the second option, it’s just a practice that does not agree with your personal preference.

You appear to have strong ideas about politics. Arguing on forums gets them nowhere, you can either preach to the choir or try to convince people who will never change their mind. If you want to change things, get involved in the political process yourself.

Reading about the topic of lobbying about every day for work. The more common term to see is "advocacy" but i would not raise an eyebrow if I saw the saw the verb lobby used to describe an environment organization's activities.

When you write a letter to your congressman ... lobbying.

Politics is just filthy business. I know I’m being short changed and should pay attention, but it is unsustainable with the more I know.

This is probably how corruption takes over a society. Something I thought I’d only ever read in history books, but now I have the privilege of living through it. Oh joy.

You know how we have this image that eastern countries are corrupt? Once you recognize the blatant corruption that is “lobbying” America doesn’t look so pure.

Chinese state officials don't have to look far when they want to point out the hypocrisy of the charges the US levies against their country. I've seen them take easy shots on Twitter just like the left vs right partisanship, "haha your side is hypocritical!" "Well so is yours!" and on and on...

I wish we had a better example to show to the world.

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