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Comment by somewhereoutth | Hacker News Reader

In the UK we do this as part of status negotiation - the second question anyone asks (after whats your name?) is what do you do?

Then we can decide whether we are above or below the other person in the status hierarchy, which is roughly as follows:

  - Architect
  - Artist/Designer/Creative
  - Lawyer/Doctor/Teacher
  - Executive/Manager
  - ...
  - ...
  - Bar staff
  - Engineer
  - Software Engineer
  - Waiter
  - Driver
  - Cleaner

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You forgot brain surgeon. Of course it's not rocket science is it.

Probably with Doctor. An actual scientist might come above Lawyer/Doctor (and below Artist/Designer), but this is a rather recent upwards move, as it became cooler to be smart (note this does not apply to engineers, who are looked down upon by scientists anyway)

It's a reference to a Mitchell and Webb sketch about the status games that people play around employment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THNPmhBl-8I

Oh I missed the reference! Yes great sketch, and exactly what we are talking about here.

fantastic reference! made me chuckle

Architects are above engineers?

I think this is a highly subjective list.

> Architects are above engineers?

Very much so! More than is possible to describe here. Of course I mean real architects - of buildings and so forth.

It is status negotiation, and not only is highly subjective but also varies depending on the age, social class and occupation of both people.

This is more or less what I was reaching for, though my attempt was with far less clarity. Thanks for wording it better than I could.

The occupation of the participants is an interesting angle. I wonder if it has been studied at any length.

I wanted to be an architect, but now I’m really thinking I’d rather be a city planner.

Why limit yourself to just one building, when you can design a whole city, right?

The list is obvious flamebait, just don't fall for it.

Sadly, it is in fact very real. The difference in how you are treated as an architect vs an engineer [in the UK] is really quite astonishing.

And also perhaps with good reason, as an architect you are keeper of the magic and mystery of the 'queen of the arts', whereas as an engineer you are just there to fix the tv/computer/iphone/whatever. As an architect you are part of polite conversation about what the world is/was/could be, whereas as an engineer you would not even get an invite. As an architect your life is (supposedly) parties and beautiful people, as an engineer board game nights and trappist beer (steady now!).

Of course the tech boom has upended things somewhat, but, in the the UK at least, we have been managing to keep a lid on that particular nonsense.

> whereas as an engineer you are just there to fix the tv/computer/iphone/whatever.

I find it interesting because it reveals so much about a society (and why the UK simply couldn't grow a real tech sector). Here in America some sneer at the terms architects or engineer being used to refer to people in tech, but nobody would consider computers and iPhones to be beneath buildings. Then again, it was all engineered right here; an All American creation.

From an art/design history point of view, computers and iPhones really aren't that interesting, and soon converge on the obvious solution as a simple rectangle of glass.

Most people in design fields would not disagree that the lion's share of design innovation in the past couple decades has been in software UI/UX. The way we interact with our devices is just so radically different than 20 years ago to the point that it shapes our cognition and way about the world. And this will only continue with AI interfaces.

I suppose you are right; it's not like any of these tech changed society for even one bit.

In reality architects work way too much to attend parties, and make too little money to attract beautiful people.

I think you're mistaken. It's perhaps tounge-in-cheek to some extent - but it does hit at some home-truths for a reasonably large segment of the population.

Kind of makes me smile. I've been a Software Engineer in the US long enough to see it go from where you placed it in the list to closer to the top. At least where I live now, everyone wants to be a Software Engineer. I suspect that will change in the next couple years during dotcom 2.0 - back to waiter level.

For what its worth, this is called “occupational prestige” and sociologists run public opinion studies to create actual lists like that: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_prestige

The actual rankings from that list from high prestige to low (there's no software engineer listed, just computer programmer or computer systems analyst):

Doctor

Lawyer

Software Engineer (if you mean "Computer Systems Analysts and Scientists")

Teacher (Postsecondary school)

Architect

Engineer

Executive

Teacher (Elementary or Secondary Scool)

Software Engineer (if you mean "Computer Programmers")

Teacher (Kindergarten)

Manager

Designer

Artist

Driver

Waiter

Bartender

Cleaner

Which gives a clue why you should never call yourself a computer programmer.

If this is the emphasis, maybe that is why the empire fell.

How very droll. Why are engineers considered so lowly?

Unfortunately the heroic age of engineering (Brunel, Bazalgette) is behind us. As it grew in complexity, engineering by necessity became corporatized and de-individualised. It was no longer the place for dashing adventurers and gentlemen intellectuals. Instead it has become associated with 'technicianship', the rather boring (but essential) trade of knowing which button to push to make things start working again.

Furthermore, it is one of the last professions to resist gender re-balancing, so social events etc are going to be somewhat barren.

There are many other professions which have similar gender gaps. They’re not talked about because the professions aren’t growing as fast and don’t make as much money for such relatively low time investment.

Exactly, it's about projecting status for those who think they can.

  - Artist/Designer/Creative

How is that not below the Cleaner or the guy who empties septic tanks?

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