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Comment by oh_sigh | Hacker News Reader

And the fact is Japanese people have no problem understanding what people are really saying. Things can be bluntly stated in Japanese even if their direct transliteration isn't blunt in English.

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That's not true. There's no magical bat-signal that only Japanese people can read, and there are lots of contexts that even Japanese people talk about as ridiculously subtle to the point of fiendishness (funny example: I think it's at Bishamon-do temple in Kyoto, where there's a room that was used to "greet" guests who had no chance of meeting with anyone of importance -- the way you "knew" this was because the fusuma paintings all had subtle errors, like animals out of season for the scene. You were just allowed to sit there until you got the message. Obviously this is historical, but it's hilariously "Kyoto", which is itself known across Japan for being maddeningly indirect. The meta-point is that they describe this during the audio tour of the temple, and Japanese people are always amused by how subtle it is.)

The primary "you need to understand this" difference about Japan rejection, IME, is that Japanese people readily accept anything other than an explicit yes as a clear no. Your average westerner tends to be really delusional about this, and the even the ones who accept it (like the author, apparently) are still hurt when it happens. Like, this sentence:

> “I’m sick today. I can’t make the lesson. I’ll contact you later”

Is practically a cliché of a Japanese rejection. This is a country where people will show up to an obligation half-dead, and absolutely never cancel something important at the last minute. If someone flakes on you with an excuse of sickness -- particularly if they don't apologize PROFUSELY and attempt to reschedule -- just accept that it's done. Anyone who has been in the country more than a few weeks has experienced this, and you'd have to be willfully obtuse not to pick it up.

(to be clear: I don't think OP is being obtuse. I think she's venting for catharsis, which is fine.)

What do they say if they are really sick, can't make the lesson, and will indeed contact you later?

GP mentioned it; they apologize profusely.

I'm curious about what constitutes a profuse apology. Does it include long explanations? Or does it take into account how the other party was inconvenienced?

I'd love to know this. Are there any great books about Japanese culture?

I'd imagine it's the difference between businesslike sorry-not-sorry stuff like: "We're sorry to inform you that we are not moving ahead with your application", and actually trying to apologize to someone. The not-actually-apologetic stuff is basically just normal parts of polite speech for the culture, actual apology with emotion or intent to make redress or request forgiveness is very different.

Sure, there'll be a gray zone of ambiguity in Japan, just as there is elsewhere. And it might even be larger (in some sense - how could one measure it?). But as you point out, there certainly are utterances in some circumstances that Japanese will understand as a clear "no" (for example), yet a word-for-word translation to English would be interpreted in English as "maybe" or "sounds good".

(I am reminded of this wonderful phrase book between British English and "Dutch" English: https://www.economist.com/johnson/2011/05/27/this-may-intere... )

It's not really a translation thing, though. It's just cultural.

There are certainly ambiguities of translation between Japanese and English (there always are between any two languages), but for the most part, these kinds of ghostings are just straightforward and stupid: "I feel bad and cannot make our appointment today."

There's no subtlety of language; you're just expected to know that this means goodbye forever. To the extent that subtle bat-signals were sent, it was probably when you made the date/appointment/whatever, and missed the uncomfortable body language of the counterparty. That can be pretty nuanced. I'm by no means an expert at this, but I've spent enough time there that I routinely see tourists, newbies, etc., completely missing the obvious social cues swirling around a room.

If I had to guess, the author is probably bad at this and doesn't know it. The stuff about discussing her miscarriage with students, in particular, makes me think she's misreading the level of social familiarity.

This is a wise comment and even applies along the north-south gradient in the USA.

My family moved from New Haven CT (Yankee land) to Memphis TN—the latter being the heart of the South or the buckle of the Bible Belt.

In Memphis if you ask a question or invite some one over to a party and they answer “I’ll try” that is a very polite and standard version of “Hell no”.

We have lived here 34 years and I am still catching on.

This exact same difference exists between the North and the South of the Netherlands and also Germany. Even though it’s only a few hours away by car. In the US, the South is more explicit I guess? Here the North is more explicit.

> In the US, the South is more explicit I guess?

No, the south is more indirect and north is more direct. This is often seen in popular culture, with northerners depicted as rude and inhospitable, while southern hospitality and friendliness is famous, while also being contrasted as duplicitous to the "honest" northerners (smile in your face and stab your back kind of stuff, vs gruff and offensively blunt).

> The primary "you need to understand this" difference about Japan rejection, IME, is that Japanese people readily accept anything other than an explicit yes as a clear no. Your average westerner tends to be really delusional about this, and the even the ones who accept it (like the author, apparently) are still hurt when it happens.

Somewhat. But the Japanese will try to exploit the asymmetry, too.

If a Japanese businessman says "Wakarimashita"(I understand) they mean "Pound sand". Do NOT take "I understand" as a "Yes, I agree." You will get burned.

However, if you as a Westerner delivers a "Wakarimashita" as a "No", the Japanese will get VERY VERY upset.

One of my favorite moments along these lines was dealing with a Japanese company who had dorked with us for almost 24 months (also a Japanese cliche) but now finally needed the deal to go through quickly. As they impressed upon us the newfound importance of the deal my response was "Wakarimashita" with lots of nods and a wide, friendly smile...

Watching the facial expression on a half-dozen people on the other side of the table darken visibly was quite glorious. The Japanese discovered that "Wakarimashita" can also mean "Bend over" in addition to "Pound sand".

Transliteration means taking the symbols of one readable language and converting them to another set of symbols. Like 'Владимир Ильич Ульянов' in Russian Cyrillic becoming 'Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov' in English Latin script.

I think what you meant was 'literal translation'. Sorry if this seems like a nitpick but these terms mean completely different things.

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