The One Thing I Can’t Stand About Teaching English in Japan (2019) | Hacker News Reader

The One Thing I Can’t Stand About Teaching English in Japan (2019)

geekstravelinjapan.wordpress.com

86 pointsinsightcheck97 comments

"They knew of my miscarriage"

So there appears to be a misunderstanding here. The enthousiastic-seeming politeness of one culture has accidentally convinced someone from a different culture that there was more emotional connection than there really was.

Just don't fall for it. It's mostly for show. Excessive politeness at a mass cultural level like that is simply an obligation. But this teacher doesn't understand that and, perhaps being a little more prone than average even in her own culture to forming emotional attachments with students, is misunderstanding what is happening.

Imagine you walk into one of those restaurants where people are super enthousiastic about you, with big hellos and showy gestures and maybe even some singing. But it doesn't mean you've formed a deep emotional bond with them. It's for show, that's just their baseline.

People everywhere in the world only have so much emotional bandwidth for strangers, but the difference in default displayed politeness level might make for some misunderstandings between cultures.

I think it's less there is a misunderstanding, and more the author is simply expressing their frustration with this aspect of Japanese culture.

The misunderstanding is that she thinks the displays of politeness are evidence the people care about her in a deep and long lasting way. But they don't, they're simply being polite, and when they no longer want her services they don't want to interact any more.

You’re making an assumption here.

You’re assuming that in the experiences she had with those students, it was their politeness that she interpreted as friendship. It’s also possible that she can discern between politeness and friendship and was seeing genuine friendship.

Surely it can't have been genuine if people are dismissing her in this way? Texting "I'm sick not this time" and then no more communication ever?

Your reply is coming across as you doubling down on your assumption.

It's not my assumption, I'm merely going by the author's empirical observation. No one whose only real connection to you is English lessons that pretends to be sick one day to cancel their lessons forever is a genuine friend, obviously.

I put my reply in the wrong branch. Please refer to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35526382

Empirical observation #1: A student said “I’m sick today. I can’t make the lesson. I’ll contact you later,”

Empirical observation #2: That student didn't contact her later including not replying to emails she sent afterwards.

There's also a direct consequence of empirical observation #2: The lessons could not continue.

Assumption #1: The student pretended to be sick. This student could have been actually sick. We have no evidence either way.

Assumption #2: Your definition of "genuine friend" is the same as the teacher's definition and the student's.

Assumption #3: Using the term "obviously" shows that you've assumed that I (or possibly anyone reading this) have the same cultural values and definitions needed to draw the same conclusion that you have.

I know I'm being pedantic and apologies if my tone comes across as condescending. I would normally avoid replying in these situations but when I put myself in your place I appreciate having the other person's perspective even if I don't agree with them because it helps me to clarify my communication in future conversations.

You can have as low a bar for "genuine friend" as you like, and I don't think the final evidence (one step text dismissal) can clear it.

That said the author maybe does see the fakeness ("They want it to feel like a friendship" ie. not be an actual friendship, just something like that feels like it, fine line I know but it's desired performance vs actual emotion). However she still thinks they "owe" her something.

But English lessons in Japan must be like... I dunno, grocery shopping to us. I'm guessing tutoring is more common in Japan than in North America. When you decide never to go to a particular grocery store, you don't give long heartfelt goodbyes. You just stop going.

My uncle worked in Japan in the aughts. And he told me how his colleagues will do anything to avoid saying "no".

For example he would ask them if they wanted to go to lunch and they would say yes, but still be at their desk working. He asks again after a minute of awkward silence if they're ready to go, and they keep saying "yes one minute" and yet keep working until he gives up and goes away.

People often take 'yes' in conversational Japanese to be an expression of agreement, when a lot of the time it's more of an acknowledgement, as in 'yes, (I heard what you said).'

They should say “ack” instead :)

Dating in Japan sounds absolutely horrifying, if this is the expected behavior to your private teacher...

I dated a Japanese girl for 4 years throughout college. We spent basically every moment of every day together and then she just disappeared. Haven't heard from her in 11 years now.

Did you go to school in Japan? If not, then did it not occur to you that a Japanese student studying abroad would need either a work permit or a marriage visa to stay? She probably was expecting you to propose and since you didn't she left because she had to.

I went to school in the US and she is not actually from Japan. Both her parents were from Japan though despite her being born in the US. It could be a coincidence and have nothing to do with this Japanese cultural phenomenon, but it seemed pretty relevant to what I experience.

Good to know. Cheers mate.

I don't think that makes ghosting after 4 years OK.

Yep.

Does Japanese aversion to confrontation trigger this behaviour?

Came here to ask the same thing.

If so, how do people quit their jobs then, or do break-ups? They just never do or do they just disappear over night?

They probably are very clear to each other, it's us foreigners who read the signals wrong.

Doesn't seem like it based on the article.

I didn't realize dating was discussed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jouhatsu

>“Not a Good Match”: Almost One in Three Japanese Graduates Quit First Job Within Three Years. While earlier generations saw lifetime employment as the norm, 30% of recent Japanese graduates quit within three years of starting their first job.

Looks like it used to be lifetime and now that is changing.

You don't quit jobs in Japan (traditionally, at least).

This changed for the better finally in the 90ies

Because of that, there are proxy services that handle quit job for you. (though it's happened within this decade) https://www.taishokudaikou.com/

Perhaps also a strong sense of duty and shame - after skipping one lesson they are too embarrassed to show up again. Each successive failure to respond deepens the embarrassment, making facing the instructor again an unthinkably difficult task. The same thing can happen with lack of attendance at university classes in other countries.

This is my mind. If cancellation is available through a web form, it's easy. However, having to communicate it through a conversation makes me nervous.

Can OP just keep charging them? As in build in a recurring rate into the contract.

If they ghost, you keep charging them until they decide to cancel the contract.

Just like how a doctor will charge a cancellation fee, you could probably do that as well / instead.

Or up-front payments for x classes.

English teachers are a dime a dozen in Japan and are treated like garbage because of it. I doubt she has much sway over her contract.

It seems like a cultural difference and not something that should be taken as an offense. It's an introverted behavior, and aren't Japanese people, and Asian cultures at large, generally considered more introverted than their western counterparts? U.S. people, especially, might be the most extroverted in the world, and thus the least capable of understanding this.

Just take a deposit. Don't pay it back until they tell you they quit.

If my language teacher asked me for a deposit, I would find another teacher.

Structure as bulk "Buy 10 classes at a discount"

It doesn't have to be much. It can come with an explanation. If they are learning English, it's useful to know for the anglophone world ghosting (in many situations) is considered extremely rude.

I think Japanese people would be very receptive to this information and the $ incentive to let them know you're serious about it.

This is actually a great solution to the problem.

From your username I figure you might know: are any other services sold this way in Japan?

I ask because if not then it's going to be difficult to go first. If yes, any idea how it influences behaviour?

Apartments come to mind. In my business we also help restaurants take deposits for reservations, which is now becoming the market standard.

I was thinking more on the line of a subscription where you buy the hour of class, either if you dont show up.

Homo economicus strikes again. Will the deposit make up for the emotional hurt?

It may overcompensate... Call me cruel but I'd have a very meta chuckle that it was economically worth X to the student to not have to message me!

I get the impression that ending a lesson with teacher or tutor in Japan seems shameful in some way.

I had some thoughts on how I'd deal with ghosting if I were a teacher in Japan. I do not have enough exposure to Japanese culture to know how well it would work.

* Change lesson duration from open ended to a fixed time period where students would have an option to "renew" based on their preference and progress.

* Provide a number of acceptable and "common" reasons to end study students can use in an effort to reduce shame. Reasons as simple as "I have met my goals as a student."

* Educate students early on on how to end their studies and present it as a part of the process and not shameful experience.

I heard a theory that this kind of extreme aversion to confrontation and the language effects are sometimes caused by a local history of essentially it being extremely common for someone to try to kill you if you offended them either through dueling or straight up murder. But that kind of killing was only socially acceptable for an obvious offense so language and behavior got tied up in knots to avoid confrontation of any kind.

This is why “bless your heart” and “fuck you” can mean the same thing in different places.

Alternatively this didn’t happen in places where conflict tended to be resolved with fights that didn’t escalate to killing.

Surprisingly not about Kanchō…

That's what I thought it was going to be.

(P.S. Something seems a little off about your username, but I can't put my finger on wha tit is.)

there was a blog long ago called Gaijin Smash where I learned what that was...still sounds better than an English boys boarding school...

I understand a very little bit of Japanese culture and they probably just feel you don’t understand their social cues

> I wanted them to just cancel.

"Sorry, $student, but I am unfortunately unable to continue being your teacher. [Personalized summary of student's progress, pleasantries, etc. go here.]" x $no_of_students

Simple. Effective. Exemplary.

Edit: I am totally available to teach English to Japanese students. Ghosting acceptable! No money down!

I don’t see any problem with this. OK, if someone doesn’t want to talk to me, it’s their right. They don’t owe me any explanation or anything else. If I tried to repeatedly reach them and demand explanation — that’s borderline stalking to me.

Cultural differences?

Judging from the number of downvotes, either I am even more socially inept than I ever thought before, or this is a genuine cultural difference.

They don't owe an explanation, but if two people have an ongoing relationship the one ending it should say "it's over" or "bye", not just leave the other hanging.

It's just a basic level of respect to not waste others time with wondering if it's over or not.

People should also be expected to be able to read the context and not need explicit confirmation or denial. It's rude and pushy to chase people and try to pressure them into saying yes and force them into saying no.

I can't help but disagree. In order to avoid miscommunication, people should be as accurate and clear in their communication as possible. It's not rude or pushy to expect clear and plain language, especially when dealing across cultural and linguistic barriers. Expecting people to read a context that varies widely between and even within a culture is unreasonable.

In this case, it's because the teacher is now left not knowing whether they have an opening in their schedule for the student or not.

This is a freelance teacher who is responsible for finding her own clients and managing her own schedule. If you let them know that you won't be taking any more lessons, they can find another student. If you lie to them and they think you'll be back for your lesson next week, they aren't going to look for another student to fill your time slot. So when you don't show up, you've just cost them to opportunity to earn money from someone else.

If I were in the same situation, I would absolutely institute a policy of continuing to bill for the student's time slot until they formally cancel services. Given the level of conflict avoidance being practiced here, I foresee such a policy being quite profitable.

I assume they have paid in advance already, as I inferred from text. And yes, of course, everyone bills until formal cancellation, at least here in Switzerland.

Ask Culture meets Guess Culture.

https://ask.metafilter.com/55153/Whats-the-middle-ground-bet...

Reminds me of Ikiru when the doctor won't tell the protagonist that he has cancer.

What shall we call this? Being disrespectful? Inconsiderate?

Saving face.

Saving face means that you made a mistake that has become obvious and you try to avoid owning up. That's not the case here.

Example: if you ghost your teacher without quitting that's inconsiderate, and calling it "saving face" is saving face.

They're saving the author's face by not explicitly telling them that their services are no longer required. (They're obviously implicitly telling them, loud and clear.)

Oh you're saying that from the student's POV they think the teacher will feel like having their services terminated is their own failure? Ok, that's plausible.

But how is ghosting saving face then? Wouldn't telling the teacher that the teacher is amazing, but for different reasons they can't have any more lessons be saving face?

This makes me wonder if the author would get more response by phrasing it with less 'finality'. More 'please let me know if online lessons are not convenient right now' and less 'if online lessons are not good enough let me know to my face and we can end this forever'.

Possibly, but the way I read it, ghosting wasn't just associated with this last "online lessons" episode, but had happened before many times. At least the way she tells it sounds it was very common.

Sure, I'm just wondering why it happened in this instance. Apparently telling a teacher you won't need them anymore is a kind of impossible situation for them, so I was wondering if offering them an 'out' would help.

Otherwise you get some weird conflict where they need to tell a teacher, which I think is automatically a superior?, that they're no longer required. So they're in a position where they need to 'criticize' a superior, and it looks like they choose to do so obliquely, and then just freeze when said superior asks them to tell it straight.

Risk adversity.

heh, you should set up payments like a gym membership... Until they get the balls to actually cut the ties properly you just keep getting paid every month.

> I prefer someone blunt and clear who will say what they mean. I don’t care if they don’t say it in the nicest of ways, as long as they say it. Speak your heart!

If that's the author's preference (fair enough), then Japan is not the right place for them (in that respect). Intercultural Communication 101. Either learn to deal with it and stop taking it personally, or move somewhere else. (Or, sure, go on a one-person quest to change Japanese culture - what could go wrong.)

And the fact is Japanese people have no problem understanding what people are really saying. Things can be bluntly stated in Japanese even if their direct transliteration isn't blunt in English.

That's not true. There's no magical bat-signal that only Japanese people can read, and there are lots of contexts that even Japanese people talk about as ridiculously subtle to the point of fiendishness (funny example: I think it's at Bishamon-do temple in Kyoto, where there's a room that was used to "greet" guests who had no chance of meeting with anyone of importance -- the way you "knew" this was because the fusuma paintings all had subtle errors, like animals out of season for the scene. You were just allowed to sit there until you got the message. Obviously this is historical, but it's hilariously "Kyoto", which is itself known across Japan for being maddeningly indirect. The meta-point is that they describe this during the audio tour of the temple, and Japanese people are always amused by how subtle it is.)

The primary "you need to understand this" difference about Japan rejection, IME, is that Japanese people readily accept anything other than an explicit yes as a clear no. Your average westerner tends to be really delusional about this, and the even the ones who accept it (like the author, apparently) are still hurt when it happens. Like, this sentence:

> “I’m sick today. I can’t make the lesson. I’ll contact you later”

Is practically a cliché of a Japanese rejection. This is a country where people will show up to an obligation half-dead, and absolutely never cancel something important at the last minute. If someone flakes on you with an excuse of sickness -- particularly if they don't apologize PROFUSELY and attempt to reschedule -- just accept that it's done. Anyone who has been in the country more than a few weeks has experienced this, and you'd have to be willfully obtuse not to pick it up.

(to be clear: I don't think OP is being obtuse. I think she's venting for catharsis, which is fine.)

What do they say if they are really sick, can't make the lesson, and will indeed contact you later?

GP mentioned it; they apologize profusely.

I'm curious about what constitutes a profuse apology. Does it include long explanations? Or does it take into account how the other party was inconvenienced?

I'd love to know this. Are there any great books about Japanese culture?

I'd imagine it's the difference between businesslike sorry-not-sorry stuff like: "We're sorry to inform you that we are not moving ahead with your application", and actually trying to apologize to someone. The not-actually-apologetic stuff is basically just normal parts of polite speech for the culture, actual apology with emotion or intent to make redress or request forgiveness is very different.

Sure, there'll be a gray zone of ambiguity in Japan, just as there is elsewhere. And it might even be larger (in some sense - how could one measure it?). But as you point out, there certainly are utterances in some circumstances that Japanese will understand as a clear "no" (for example), yet a word-for-word translation to English would be interpreted in English as "maybe" or "sounds good".

(I am reminded of this wonderful phrase book between British English and "Dutch" English: https://www.economist.com/johnson/2011/05/27/this-may-intere... )

It's not really a translation thing, though. It's just cultural.

There are certainly ambiguities of translation between Japanese and English (there always are between any two languages), but for the most part, these kinds of ghostings are just straightforward and stupid: "I feel bad and cannot make our appointment today."

There's no subtlety of language; you're just expected to know that this means goodbye forever. To the extent that subtle bat-signals were sent, it was probably when you made the date/appointment/whatever, and missed the uncomfortable body language of the counterparty. That can be pretty nuanced. I'm by no means an expert at this, but I've spent enough time there that I routinely see tourists, newbies, etc., completely missing the obvious social cues swirling around a room.

If I had to guess, the author is probably bad at this and doesn't know it. The stuff about discussing her miscarriage with students, in particular, makes me think she's misreading the level of social familiarity.

This is a wise comment and even applies along the north-south gradient in the USA.

My family moved from New Haven CT (Yankee land) to Memphis TN—the latter being the heart of the South or the buckle of the Bible Belt.

In Memphis if you ask a question or invite some one over to a party and they answer “I’ll try” that is a very polite and standard version of “Hell no”.

We have lived here 34 years and I am still catching on.

This exact same difference exists between the North and the South of the Netherlands and also Germany. Even though it’s only a few hours away by car. In the US, the South is more explicit I guess? Here the North is more explicit.

> In the US, the South is more explicit I guess?

No, the south is more indirect and north is more direct. This is often seen in popular culture, with northerners depicted as rude and inhospitable, while southern hospitality and friendliness is famous, while also being contrasted as duplicitous to the "honest" northerners (smile in your face and stab your back kind of stuff, vs gruff and offensively blunt).

> The primary "you need to understand this" difference about Japan rejection, IME, is that Japanese people readily accept anything other than an explicit yes as a clear no. Your average westerner tends to be really delusional about this, and the even the ones who accept it (like the author, apparently) are still hurt when it happens.

Somewhat. But the Japanese will try to exploit the asymmetry, too.

If a Japanese businessman says "Wakarimashita"(I understand) they mean "Pound sand". Do NOT take "I understand" as a "Yes, I agree." You will get burned.

However, if you as a Westerner delivers a "Wakarimashita" as a "No", the Japanese will get VERY VERY upset.

One of my favorite moments along these lines was dealing with a Japanese company who had dorked with us for almost 24 months (also a Japanese cliche) but now finally needed the deal to go through quickly. As they impressed upon us the newfound importance of the deal my response was "Wakarimashita" with lots of nods and a wide, friendly smile...

Watching the facial expression on a half-dozen people on the other side of the table darken visibly was quite glorious. The Japanese discovered that "Wakarimashita" can also mean "Bend over" in addition to "Pound sand".

Transliteration means taking the symbols of one readable language and converting them to another set of symbols. Like 'Владимир Ильич Ульянов' in Russian Cyrillic becoming 'Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov' in English Latin script.

I think what you meant was 'literal translation'. Sorry if this seems like a nitpick but these terms mean completely different things.

She said in the article she would move out if not her partner

> Either learn to deal with it and stop taking it personally, or move somewhere else.

To be fair, I would expect that HN would have a bit more sympathy for the fact that the ambiguity means that she has to hold open a "schedule slot" that she could otherwise sell to somebody else.

My friend teaches guitar and has to deal with this all the time. "I'd like to cancel the lesson." "That's great, but you still need to pay for it." "WHAT!?!?" "Look. You aren't just paying for being taught guitar. You are also paying for that 4:00PM Wednesday time slot that everybody in the universe wants."

The author has correctly and rationally identified the problem. He knows exactly why and how his students behave this way, and yet he still takes it very personally. I'm glad he has at least found an explanation, but it would really help if he consulted with a mental health specialist as to which steps to take to stop feeling distraught every time it happens

> He

Given that the post mentions the author's pregnancy and miscarriage, I'm pretty sure it's "she".

She.

It's not a mental health issue. It's not unhealthy to feel upset if people behave in a way that inconveniences you or makes you feel bad. It's a normal human emotional reaction, people are not robots, and knowing the rational explanation for something does not prevent one from feeling emotions about it. There's not much to be done about it, but blogging about it may actually be pretty therapeutic.

> The author has correctly and rationally identified the problem.

Did she? She indicated politeness likely plays a role but didn't get into the specifics of Japanese politeness that results in this.

Isn't it reasonable to feel a little sad when something like this happens?

Like by all means if they are crushed by this, see a specialist, but a little pang of sadness hardly seems like an unreasonable reaction requiring a mental health professional.

The goal of therapy isn't to make you immune from all negative emotions.

To be fair the feeling you get from reading the post is that it crushed her.

I do not like ghosting, but having the ability to adapt to local customs is quite important when living in a foreign country.

It seems the author actually understands the local customs, but couldn't accept it emotionally.

Would accepting it emotionally mean not having those emotions?

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