Let me know your thoughts. Reference pix of 70" industrial display using Samsung LCD panel and in-house LCD controller with physical OSD menu buttons along with IR/RS232 control capability: https://imgur.com/a/k6zrH3s
[1] https://search.ipaustralia.gov.au/trademarks/search/view/115...
[2] https://files.littlebird.com.au/Shared-Image-2023-04-08-06-5...
Edit: as in you have to code BASIC to change the channel
I think it needs just a bit of fool-proofing in a couple dimensions though:
(1) Ideally, the brand would also be able to speak to the segment of people who aren't going to get the wordplay.
(2) Also, there's the age-old pronunciation question. Is it just "Primitive"? Is it "Primi - Tee - Vee"?
It's quite close to being a great brand, though. I wonder if it just needs a skillfully-placed lowercase letter, or a couple dots, or something — maybe some sort of subtle variation could solve both problems.
Like, most people probably don’t think about the fact that Uniqlo is short for “unique clothing” and yet it’s the #3 clothing retailer in the world.
PrimiTV.
As in: DirecTV.
Actually, I don't own a TV, and besides, it would be the coolest story to tell when people ask me where I got this device. So I would like to gladly take you up on the offer IF you actually end up using the name, everything worked out as you hoped and you're in serial production.
I really like the design btw, clean, uniform bezels and logo-less. That's what i always look after for my computer displays.
I'll drop you an email. Thanks again :)
I wanna play the name game.
Perhaps something along the lines of:
'NOAD' - noad.tv - I could see a regular googler search for 'no ad TV'
Or some other word for 'dumb', 'not smart'. Like dunce.tv. dolt. simpleton. dullard. etc.
Maybe a play on the TCP error ENETUNREACH? hehe.
The word "idiot" comes from the Greek noun ἰδιώτης idiōtēs 'a private person, individual' (as opposed to the state), 'a private citizen' (as opposed to someone with a political office), 'a common man', 'a person lacking professional skill, layman', later 'unskilled', 'ignorant', derived from the adjective ἴδιος idios 'personal' (not public, not shared). In Latin, idiota was borrowed in the meaning 'uneducated', 'ignorant', 'common', and in Late Latin came to mean 'crude, illiterate, ignorant'. In French, it kept the meaning of 'illiterate', 'ignorant', and added the meaning 'stupid' in the 13th century. In English, it added the meaning 'mentally deficient' in the 14th century.
Top 2 results: standardtvandapplicance.com and https://talent.nebula.tv/
not impossible
Also, marketing isn't only about search results. Another example: Standard Hotels
STANDARD is probably not the best choice for short-term SEO, though. :)
Justa box, and nothing else.
a sarcastic nod to smart.
I like the name "dumbo", maybe coming from "dumb TV" and Jumbotron -- a nice, big TV/display without all the "smart TV" problems, and having fun naming something that's a bit of a cult niche -- but I also want your business to succeed.
(Disney has been putting their Dumbo on TV since at least the 1980s. I don't know whether there are other Dumbos, but I could imagine lawyer billable hours destroying your margin regardless of the theoretical defensibility. Also, separate from US govt. offices and courts, there's ICANN, and I guess you could suddenly lose your domain name that way.)
I contains Tap and Cast (ok, Kast...) plus giving a nod to the famous Prince name copyright case.
My main issue with smart TVs isn't the network connectivity, its their horrible UI. The menus are universally confusing, slow and poorly thought-out. And because these TVs have to have some complicated OS to run all this stuff, they're slow to start up. My AppleTV goes from standby to on faster than my circa 2008[1] (only kinda smart) TV and receiver are ready to display an image. The AppleTV should not be the fastest device in the chain.
I assume your commercial displays have a time-to-first-image that more closely resembles a computer monitor. That's what I want in a TV. If Apple had a TV-version of CarPlay that TV manufacturers could license, I'd be pretty happy with that.
Given that embedded TvOS isn't coming any time soon, my ideal TV would have:
* 70" - 80" screen
* the smallest possible bezel
* 4k HDR
* capable of professional color calibration
* one HDMI 2.1 input with ARC
* TV tuner with auto-scan
* any crappy speaker will do (I'm not going to use it)
* IR/RS-232 control with distinct codes for on and off (i.e. not toggled)
* excellent CEC support
* time-to-first-image under 3 seconds, immediate audio
* simulated snow for dead channels/no input (much nicer than blue IMO)
* power, HDMI, serial connections should be down-facing
* physical buttons on the back of the TV for power, channel, volume, menu
* a rear or bottom-mounted red power LED that reflects off the wall/table
[1] In December 2008, I bought a Samsung LN52A750 52" 1080p TV for $1937. That's roughly $2772 inflation-adjusted. It has a huge bezel; a modern TV with the same physical dimensions would be closer to 60" diagonal.
1. Professional color calibration - this is doable, but it adds significant cost. When referring to color calibration, it is not the typical marketing gimmick used for consumer displays, but instead something equivalent to what you would get with Sony's BVM-HX310 reference monitor. So, my question would be what level of professional color calibration is acceptable?
2. HDMI 2.1 - HDMI-2.1a to be specific. Our controllers are all compliant up to HDMI-2.0 as of now. This is something in the works, but due to chip shortages, it has been challenging to come by industrial-grade chips/SoCs that handle HDMI 2.1a. However, this is on our radar.
3. TV Tuner - it is unclear if you mean an actual channel tuner or an auto-scanner for the available input. If referring to a channel tuner for COAX-based inputs, this is something that has been phased out, not by us but by our chip suppliers.
Regarding the price point, that sounds very doable. My personal expertise is in overall system integration and sheet metal design. The intent is to create even the consumer-grade display with a fabricated aluminum shell that feels rock-solid and heavy-duty aesthetically.
FYI, all the "nice-haves" are also already present, with the exception of down-facing connections. Can you clarify? Also, did you check out the pictures from my link above?
Thank you again for your valuable feedback!
TV Tuner - Yes. An ATSC tuner with a COAX antenna input that can auto-scan for receivable channels. If this isn't feasible anymore, then I guess the HDMI input doesn't need ARC.
Connectors - looking at your photos, your input connections are on the side. If you put them on the bottom (down-facing), I think they'd be easier to reach if the TV is wall mounted (maybe not as easy if its on a table-top stand though). As long as they don't stick straight out the back, any orientation would be acceptable.
What's your experience with outdoor displays? 1000+ nits, IP-67 rated?
[1] In my area, that would be someone like https://www.gramophone.com
As for outdoor TVs, that's a whole other Pandora's box, but yes, we also make those displays, mainly for digital billboards, advertising, and rental purposes. They typically range from 5000 nits to 12000 nits in brightness, and their pixel pitch ranges from 3mm to 9mm. They're all IP67 rated. Displays with a brightness lower than 5000 nits are typically indoor LED displays with much finer pitch, ranging from 0.9mm to 6mm. A 0.9mm pitch would be very similar to Samsung's QN90A series TVs with QLEDs (a marketing gimmick for an actual LED pixel-based display). These displays may cost a pretty penny, but we hope that once semiconductor plants are up and running in the US, costs will start to come down. Here's a project we did with a circular 3mm display back in 2017. This unit is 7ft tall with a 4.5ft diameter: http://bit.ly/43keDD5
So my use case for outdoor displays is in the recreational marine market. Screen sizes are typically between 7" and 18" with some very high-end "glass bridge" displays coming in around 24". Retail for a 12" chart plotter is $4000. Typical display brightness is 1200 nits, which is OK, but still hard to see in direct sunlight with sunglasses. Conversely, they also don't get dim enough at night.
The glass bridge solutions all use a "black box" chart plotter (essentially a rugged PC) and dumb displays. But the smallest displays are 16" and way more expensive than the integrated solution.
I'd love a 12" to 15" HD display with capacitive touch, optically bonded LCD, wide viewing angle, viewable in direct sunlight (with sunglasses), and dimmable to nearly off (20 - 50 nits maybe?) so that its not blinding at night (not city night, but offshore night). It should have one cable: a USB connection for power, video, and HID output.
In the vein of your pole display, a 14-18" tall, 4" wide screen would be very cool for the sailing market. Most folks mounting mast displays are still stacking a bunch of individual 3" or 4" monochrome LCDs (at $1000/ea).
Naively, I'd say… Delta-E <5. Asus ProArt monitors originally shipped with that, and could be calibrated by the user to Delta-E <2; afte a while, Asus simply started shipping them them with the latter.
A video mixer acts as the source and sink for the output and the inputs respectively, where a HDMI switch will just physically disconnect and connect the output port to a different input port, meaning the HDID negotiation has to be re-done every time.
Why do you need this?
What kinds of inputs?
How many?
Are they all operating at the same resolution and frame rate?
What resolutions?
Do they require scaling? De-interlacing?
Are they synchronized? (genlock)
Down-facing connections are a must.
I also don't want anything except a power button -- no channel, volume, menu, etc. I don't want crappy TV speakers and I'd really rather not have an OSD. I would love a display where I could fire up some software on my computer and have it issue commands over HDMI CEC to change settings. There are USB CEC adapters out there that would make this possible if computer HDMI ports won't emit CEC commands for whatever reason.
Ideally, strip the display down to the simplest possible thing and focus on the core features: big display, small bezel, high resolution, HDR, color accuracy (configurable through the aforementioned CEC mechanism). I don't even need multiple inputs: just give me one working HDMI input.
All of this is overkill in my opinion. However… I think this is a core market for you. Between the Enthusiasts on Reddit and the home theater market there are a lot of people that would appreciate a highly tunable screen where they can have their AV closet run the show without Samsung, Google, or Roku in the way.
One of the most painful parts of my install was getting an HDMI Balun that would operate in 4:4:4 color space, provide 7.2 ARC, provide CEC, and provide IR… and work reliably. This is a tall ask because it’s supposed to use CAT6 between the ends. The expense of these units was high (300-500) and the reliability wasn’t great. A lot of the reason for this pain is the idea that you can upgrade later without running a new set of wires. Ultimately I said screw it and ran an optical HDMI cable (and am very happy).
You would really engage with this market if you integrated this functionality into your TV so you only needed to run a cable and attach the receiver side Balun. I don’t know where the pain came from but this feels like something that the native TV hardware could expose over a cable. Some people have Toslink run through their walls as well which would be a good option to support as well.
We do have a few LCD controller boards that support IP TV, but the downside is that they use 264/MPEG-4 AVC compression for transport.
A final thought: Arduino and the Raspberry PI became the reference in the makers community, not because they were better and/or cheaper but because they were reasonably good and cheap, but most importantly they were very well documented and offered standard connectors that would allow makers to build their devices knowing they would be compatible with the new models. If you make a 100% Open Source dumb TV with a rear Open Source well documented connector allowing tinkerers to extend the device functionality beyond adding a TV box (which in most cases just moves the privacy issue one HDMI cable away), your product would be extremely well received by the tinkerers community, and probably much beyond it.
What for? I'd prefer to connect my own computer instead of having a worse one build in
I am not in the market for a TV and I am only a hobbyist with a tendency to spend more than I should on anything that lets me open the hood and tinker with it. If there is any consumer electronics company that wants to be the anti-Apple, I'd support it in any possible way.
Seriously, I even wonder if there could be some type of "Patreon-based" R&D for consumer eletronics. Get a group of software and industrial engineers to design and build all sorts of different projects, and patreons would get access to early prototypes and would be able to "buy" the finished products at cost.
Honestly to compete with mass market TVs, it's going to be difficult to avoid have more- not less "bloat". Built-in Android would be a great selling point (saves you $200 on a NVidia Shield as long as it doesn't track you or lock down features). Built-in AI upscaling is a good selling point.
I would also think if you have a OLED or edge/direct LED backlight LCD then you also need to run much more complicated pixel/zone brightness algorithms....
There's probable more memory allocated per frame on a modern 4K TV than an 8-bit computer had in total.
No, the reason that UIs are slow are because they are often a web browser, running a Javascript bloatware UI with it's shadow DOM or whatever, and there's a heaps of bullshit going on before anything happens on screen at all.
And this is fine! For many use-cases, comparatively beefy PCs, web pages etc.
But for what is effectively an embedded product which will get updated seldom if ever, THIS is the time to take a step and rethink what you are doing.
For a non-smart TV you definitely don't need Linux, (but you could!) and you don't need to care if it's realtime or not. There should be only one or two processes running anyway, so there shouldn't be any competition between different threads. It's should all be coded like a classic, tight game-loop.
AI upscaling and Android... dear lord. Just give me something which isn't fucking slow and frustrating to use. I thought I was in the thread which discussed non-smart TVs, did I miss something?
For control… it's really a question of balance. "all the things" sure would be nice, but with a mid 4-digit price I think putting a small fully-open Linux embedded board inside would be awesome. Some existing SBC or SoM is preferable over rolling your own, the latter would just splinter off a separate community for no good reason. Also make sure the embedded system has full control over all functions (there should be enough GPIO & I²C…) and has its own power control. Having it able to actually drive the TV display would be nice (and easy these days) but isn't even the point :).
If you don't stick that in, how about a slot/connector for a Raspberry Pi compute module — or some other reasonably sourceable similar module?
Barring that, RS-232 for control is a bit dated, I'd really expect both an USB device port (control in) and an USB power output, ideally USB-C PD capable, to run some small system off. If you have the pins & functions, please spend the extra $5 and wire up leftover "random" interfaces, e.g. CAN or RS-485. Ethernet without adding a full SBC is kinda "meh", putting together some embedded OS with networking is significant effort for very little return.
I guess you can toggle the internet on and off when updates are published, but it's not the most convenient solution.
Edit: But you can use a USB! Woohoo, thank you repliers!
As Jimmy waited for a reply, as Muggs turned beet red, he again noticed how that poor nose was bent, deformed even, and did the man no favour.
Muggs, anger at a peak, spat out "Twas the babypuncher, Jimmy, the babypuncher. He got me as a babe"
Alternatively, for something more automated, you could just use parental control 'bedtime'. I use it currently to keep the kid from watching TV at certain hours. Could probably do the inverse and block it except for an hour on a particular day, I'd imagine.
Fwiw toggling the internet is an easy fix compared to the "dumb tv" way of updating firmware - putting a bin on a flash drive.
I'll add that "back in my day" a screen could display the video signal on its inputs without ever needing a software update. But I suppose automatic time zone changes are a reasonable reason that code needs to be pushed post-manufacture. Then again, who needs a clock on their TV?
* it is effectively dumb to me, so I don’t care about feature updates
* it isn’t connected to the network, so I don’t care about security updates
It hadn't occurred to me that there could be TVs out there that are so “smart” that they can’t even take an input without a network connection. Such a device would be returned as defective by me, but of course I can see somebody deciding that packing it all up into the car is too much of a pain.
Video codec upgrades and software processing are nice things to have and often worth the update.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/bernardmarr/2017/02/08/shocking...
> Once every second, software in the Vizio TVs would read pixel data from a segment of the screen. This was sent home and compared against a database of film, television and advertising content to determine what was being watched.
With Apple TV, you can nip that in the bud. Yes, Apple TV has its own quirks but it’s nowhere near as hostile as built in “functionality” that these tvs try to provide.
And not say that streaming services have every incentive to keep the Apple TV apps improving compared to the tv app itself.
It’s just an overall better experience.
But when it comes to general conversation (and this context), yes it's the same. Unless you are actually using a niche setup of local streaming and the Apple TV box is just a nice interface you keep offline - don't know how well that works. For everyone else, they are just avoiding overlapping TV services, as relying on Apple or Google or Amazon is falling into the same traps.
Worst case, Apple jumps the shark… you can just unplug it. You at least get to keep the display.
That difference in power is felt quite a lot in the user experience.
So it still sounds like a software problem to me.
That would be fine if they were rendering to a 720p screen or had much more simplistic menus like the those found on most A/V receivers, but they’re usually running recent-ish Android or something similar, which has fancy graphics and animations all over the place designed for newer devices which make that hardware choke at the 4K resolution that the majority of TVs now ship with. Exacerbating this are the terrible lowest-bidder smart TV apps which are written terribly.
TV manufacturers will never ship an OS more suitable for the hardware though, because they’re concerned that it will make the TV look less modern than competing TVs. They also won’t ship better hardware because that’d cut $5 per unit off of their margins. As such, it’s best to just write off integrated “smarts” and plug in a streaming box that’s not so anemic.
We were staying at one just a few days ago that had a cheap Samsung TV. The UI latency was so horribly laggy that simply clicking an arrow on the remote to try to navigate to the next menu would take up to 10 seconds to finally register on screen. It was also variable, meaning some button presses only took 1-2 seconds to respond, but some took 10 seconds, and if you pressed more than once you'd end up with a whole bunch of your delayed button presses registering at once and taking you to a menu option you didn't want.
Sad to say, but state of the art in these Android menu systems is horrible latency, most likely because the UI devs are building in new javascript features that run horribly slow on older ARM processors and they just don't give any F's about the actual user experience or testing...
A TV with Samsung MySmart™ HomeOS Android UltraCrap Edition is not the same as an AppleTV, if you care about things like, I don't know... consistent framerate? No random crashes? Bearable UI latency?
Similarly how Apple CarPlay is not the same as car manufacturers' sorry-ass homegrown infotainment trash software.
iPhones are still spying on you, even if you tick the box to disable sharing of device analytics[0][1].
[0]: https://gizmodo.com/apple-iphone-analytics-tracking-even-whe...
It was great for two days and then it downloaded an update that absolutely wrecked the interface. What was smooth and snappy and good enough for me now moves at a snails pace and the tv is practically unusable even after a factory reset.
Opening the menu takes 2.5 seconds from button push to response on a good day for no reason other than vizio must have decided it was time for me to buy a new tv.
I used to like their brand. Now I'll never buy another one again.
99% of the problem with Smart TVs is because of the absolute dog shit UI and the relatively bad HDMI CEC setups they have (at least with mine, if HDMI CEC is on, anytime the TV accidentally or intentionally gets into any of the smart parts, it tells the receiver to go to TV mode, and getting it back to one of the HDMI inputs on the receiver either involves turning everything off, or turning it back repeatedly).
I also have a Hisense Android TV and would avoid any Android TV's.
Ridiculously bad is the „Home Screen“ (Netflix-like UI with every app and suggestions and so one in one place), which needs even longer to start.
And the worst thing is: all of these internal apps are reloaded EVERY TIME I use them. No preloading, no caching. Everything lags and needs several painful seconds to display.
(And then LG did not even bother to pay some cents for the DTS license so that I am unable to watch movies from USB sticks with DTS audio track, and I would have to convert them to Dolby AC3 first on my computer …)
The LG display is nice, though it’s far from perfect, which is a problem of ALL televion sets, and I don’t know why because _monitors_ on the other hand are always pixel perfect, but televisions seem never be able to get configured pixel-sharp, even with perfect video material. It’s ok for the money I poured into. Just a big screen.
An also bad part of LG is the lack of apps and the control LG holds over the store. There isn’t even a web browser available, just the crappy thing from LG built-in, which does not even have all TLS certificates. I wish I had bought a TV with Android.
RS-232 control also has a command to disable OSD, which has the pleasant side effect of disabling annoying smart TV bits like pop-up notifications even when the TV is connected to the Internet (and also superfluous [to me] non-smart TV pop-ups that ordinarily appear when switching inputs and adjusting visually apparent settings like brightness).
Disabling the OSD also disables the bundled Magic Remote, though IR remotes still work (unless locked out with another command) and OSD can be re-enabled via RS-232, or by simply power-cycling the TV.
As a bonus, input switching via IR remote (or RS-232) is noticeably faster than switching via Magic Remote, even if you set up hotkeys, as full-featured LG IR remotes have hard buttons for each input that don't require press-and-hold to activate (this includes sub-$10 service remote knock-offs on Amazon, which work perfectly fine IME, though you may want to steer away from these in a casual setting as some of the service buttons can cause undesirable behavior).
For my own use, I wrote a trivial ASP.NET Web API wrapper around the LG RS-232,
https://github.com/jasminetroll/LgTvControl
While only tested on macOS controlling the TV I own (55SK9000), the documentation it's written against isn't model-specific and I'm not using any platform-specific .NET APIs, so it should work across many TV models and on any platform that supports RS-232 and .NET (.NET 6.0+ as currently configured, though it was mostly developed on .NET Core 3.1, so changing TargetFramework in the csproj file should suffice to get it running on older versions).
A decent consumer LCD panel will be ~12ms@60Hz, with OLED often being faster. If it's over 20ms or so, I struggle on some old NES games.
I’d prefer a much smaller tv (32-40”) but I’m weird like that.
All I’d want is an input for an Apple TV and maybe 2 more hdmi plugs. Doesn’t even need a remote.
Good luck.
Add more input ports than you think anybody could ever want, and I'm in.
https://assets.catawiki.com/image/cw_normal/plain/assets/cat...
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https://i.redd.it/aiahnmp5cd151.jpg
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https://946e583539399c301dc7-100ffa5b52865b8ec92e09e9de9f4d0...
I suppose they might think to argue that someone selling televisions with the name Dumbo would be trying to tie their product in with the Disney trademarked product. I don't think that would be considered too much of a stretch so I don't think you would do too well with continuing with that name.
Of course, by the time Disney notices you you'll already have succeeded, but you may be forced to change brand. You can do it now or later.
[1] https://search.ipaustralia.gov.au/trademarks/search/view/115...
[2] https://files.littlebird.com.au/Shared-Image-2023-04-08-06-5...
(Volume control is essential for analog audio out because if I’m going to use external speakers I don’t want to have to have a separate volume control just for that…)
Personally my TV is offline with an AppleTV for streaming.
The sales pitch can’t be “sure that TV is the same as ours for double the price, but wait until nexts years model!”
Well, better reason to buy the cheap one today.
One problem is the TV nags you to enter set it up every time you turn it on. We have to keep the TV remote around just to use the power on/off button.
Not the end of the world, but I'd rather have the product that fits my application.
I strongly suspect most game consoles are spying on you just as much as a smart TV would and all of them currently seem to be pushing ads in your face pretty aggressively too. Still probably better than roku which records and sends home multiple screenshots of whatever you're watching every second, but if my PS5 isn't doing some form of ACR already I suspect it's only a matter of time.
I did some minor ps3 hacking a decade or so back, and dumped the network activity. Every boot it would send some XMPP traffic containing a log of your recent activities back to Sony. What you watched over Dlna, what dvds/Bly-rays you played, which games, for how long and when.
I imagine things have only got more detailed since then in newer consoles.
(Yes, that restriction includes changing the HDMI source for your Apple TV. Simply not possible without.)
* eARC
* Dolby Vision and HDR10+
* VRR, preferably with G-Sync and Freesync Premium certification
These are my requirements for a new display, anything that meets them in the pipeline? My biggest problem with existing "dumb TVs" is that they lack features like these, yet cost more than "smart TVs" that do.
Variable refresh rate is essential for games, to avoid stuttering at least.
Dolby Vision and HDR10+ are newer premium HDR formats.
Don't just do the bare minimum VRR support to be HDMI 2.1 compliant though. The spec only requires a very narrow VRR window. Lots of cheaper devices make this window 48 to 60 hz, even when the display itself supports fixed refresh rates up to 120 hz. VRR should work anywhere from 30 all the way up to the maximum refresh rate supported by the TV. That is why I mentioned the G-Sync/Freesync Premium certifications.
Also HDR support and DRM will be quite problematic.
Do these displays support HDCP? Are they locked at 60 or 30hz refresh rates?
There is a reason why computer monitors make really poor display devices for multimedia content.
4K or 8K content sure, but what about HDR? Especially at sizes less than 40” that’s more important than res for viewing content.
HDCP isn’t supported on all versions of HDMI it’s not part of the spec it is a standard that is supported on top of w/e display interface you are using.
Overall I don’t think you realize just how difficult your venture might be.
Signage displays will make really bad televisions.
They are optimized for long term operations over color accuracy and gamut, they usually operate at fixed refresh rates, and their latency is usually pretty terrible.
I don’t think you realize just how small the market for what you are looking to build in the first place is and how difficult it would be to make anything that is remotely useable as a display for movies and video games.
Those who want a dumb display can already buy one of those 50-65” enterprise displays for meeting rooms however they make pisspoor TVs and having to pay 3-5 times the price of even a high end TV makes them pretty pointless for even the user base that might want that.
The large format gaming monitors are an option but recently they are adding “SmartTV” features to them because that’s what most consumers seem to want.
Both LG and Samsung are making 30-40” gaming monitors with apps these days like Netflix because they seem to be quite popular with students and flatsharers.
I would not pay a premium for metal case - and I am not in the cost conscious above all consumer market. I am really skeptical there is a large contingent that would. In any event - maybe no smartos, but this minimal firmware would have to be beyond reproach, and support Dolby Vision, proper tone mapping, GSync/Freesync/VRR, isf calibration, substantial Rec 2020 gamut, and probably excellent upscaling. You’re never gonna attract the cost conscious market - the segment beyond that has very particular standards. I dont see how you can survive excluding either one of the gamer or cinema enthusiast markets - especially when the current high end TVs already cater to both. Just because the LG C- series of TVs are clearly a consumer product does not mean they are junk. And the software isn’t nearly as bad as people gripe about (at least in the higher end market where you’d be competing) - not enough to forego actual image processing features.
Elsewhere was dismissed consumer display color calibration as a “marketing gimmick” - it isn’t. These TVs have fantastic accuracy out of the box, but because they’re carefully designed and factory set that way. I think you are too dismissive of the existing market.
TV manufacturers spend a lot of time and effort on figuring out how to drive these panels effectively and they build their own silicon for this.
Even tho most TVs use the same MediaTek SoC for the smart features as well as the I/O they have their own image processors and drivers on separate silicon.
I suspect that if you are serious about this you’ll be far better off partnering with an OEM who already manufactures TVs and just toning down the SmartOS features.
Getting a display to operate at 10ms or better response time and supporting VRR have the image processing required to display all types of media content, supporting HDR with proper tone mapping, getting the color science right and much more is going to be an monumentally complex task to achieve.
Allow me to add that every time I’ve removed it I’ve had full licensing and permissions, just that HDCP was in the way.
Same goes for not supporting HDCP of a specific version e.g. a display that supports only HDCP 1.3 but not 2.0 will be able to display 1080 Blu-ray’s but not 4K ones.
Yes in theory you can rip it off however that is very expensive and difficult especially with more recent standards (I’m not aware of any way to strip HDCP 2.1 and higher) and bandwidths.
Also to strip it you still need to get a license and keys so it would be quite difficult to do so on a commercial basis especially in a country with strong rule of law.
All my TV's have computers hooked to them, mainly low power x86 systems and run Linux or 9front on them. Linux gets me a browser which makes into a useful internet toaster to watch hulu, browse and so on. Then I can open terminals and whatever while I'm on the couch or in bed. It's 1000x more useful than a smart TV or even a TV stick.
Is the rS232 protocol ASCII based?
Sizes I use at home range between 32 and 55 inches. And I both stand them on tables or wall mount.
I've often though about going for something like a Sharp/NEC Display, because I often use my T.V. as a PC monitor and want to be sure it's not phoning home, but the idea of being able to slide in a compute module is also generally interesting. One of the things that always stops me is the quality and responsiveness. It would still be in my living room, so I still want a nice picture and features like variable refresh rate for devices like a PS5.
HDMI such an abomination thrust upon the world. Why do we accept a TV going blank for seconds for any reason in 2023. Lawrd help us all. Can you optimize HDMI resync in any way? That would be a major selling point. Maybe blend the output between what was shown and what is about to be shownn (apply a gentle blur filter to the last seen frame for a few moments and fade to black after 3-4 seconds.. float a gentle explainer message “HDMI sync lost….” After 3 seconds)
It's always frustrating to see manufacturers intentionally make their product worse just to look better in a store. I'm sure I'm not the only one who cares a lot more about image quality, latency, durability, etc. than having a fancy rounded plastic case with a laggy netflix integration.
https://www.cdw.com/search/computer-monitors-displays/large-...
If you don't mind dropping the money then go for it, but I think most people will want to go for consumer model for much less.
Also I am not sure if those support HDR or other features that may be desirable in a consumer display.
HDR is a good point, i haven't had a chance to use any of those newer TV features so i'm not sure what i'm missing there. but that's the sort of thing i'd wait a few years for to see if they stick around, or if they're just a fad to sell more TVs like 3D was.
Our company caters to this market by designing and fabricating our own thick metal casings for our displays. We also bond our sourced LCD panels with an additional layer of 1/8” to 1/4” thick anti-glare polycarbonate sheets to help them resist physical trauma. We have also designed our own controller that operates these displays with a super minimal/barebones RTOS. Our controllers can be controlled via RS232, but unlike other displays, we do not have an onboard PHY (Ethernet connectivity capability). This is an industrial requirement that originated due to Stuxnet.
Majority of the large format displays in the market today are more like smart TVs than actual dumb TVs, and though they are great products, they would not last in a real rugged industrial environment. I can create large format displays without the smartness for consumer use at an approximate 50-70% of their price.
- is Not smart
- does Not spy on you
- does Not show you ads
- is Not going to harm your family
…
You get the idea..
Personally 70” is a bit too big but I’d definitely be interested in a quality dumb tv.
Gamers and retro-gamers are distinct but related groups.
Both groups want ultra-low consistent latency as priority, with minimal to none post-processing by default.
For modern console and PC gamers, if your panel will support high(er) refresh rates (60Hz, 75Hz, 120Hz as ideal minimum, 144Hz as recommended, 240Hz as perfect) at standard resolutions (1080p, 1440p and 2160p) please include them.
If having AMD's standard variable refresh rate (FreeSync) is an option, that'd be great.
Both a Display Port and HDMI inputs ideally, but I understand if it's HDMI only.
For retro gamers, if you have to make educated guesses as to input settings or processing (deinterlacing for example) please give us the option to override the defaults. And I guess respect what you're told the input is. Don't assume 240p is 480i, or vice versa. You might think that's a given, but it isn't.
If you're going to include legacy inputs (like component video, composite, VGA) please ensure they're have low consistent latency.
Ideally include support for the (now) sometimes unusual inputs from classic consoles or the ability to add it later via firmware updates or as a stretch goal or whatever.
Or at least test the majors from PAL and NTSC regions: NES, SNES, N64, GC, Wii. Master System, Genesis, Saturn, Dreamcast. Playstation, 2, and 3. (Personal request for Atari Jaguar!)
But scalers like the OSSC and RetroTINK line exist for people who need to hook up weird stuff, so there's no massive need to bake it into the TV. So long as the HDMI inputs are low and consistent latency, anything else can be worked around outside.
If including legacy inputs is something you're thinking of doing, please have a quick word with Bob over on RetroRGB and anyone else he'd recommend speaking to.
[EDIT: Also give the option to display as much info as possible. Resolution, refresh rate, connection standard, audio codec, errors, HDCP standard and status etc.]
You may find yourself the primary supplier to the whole retro niche!
And if you become the primary TV makers for gamers, you will never run out of market or free advertising.
If you'll excuse an odd and personal somewhat scope-creep-ish request... If the colour data from the screen edges were accessible, so Hue Ambilight-style tech is implementable without having to point a camera back at the screen or intercept the HDMI stream inbound (as the Hue Play HDMI Sync Box does), that'd be awesome. No idea how feasible in terms of connectivity and dev time that'd be though.
It would be nice if there was some sort of bay to hide a computer inside of that lets the user pop a board in and turn their dumb TV into a "Smarter TV". Something like an ITX bay that can be left empty from factory. I say ITX because it's a standard that gives the owner the freedom to put the computer of their choice into it and upgrade path. RPi or other R-V/Arm SoM/SBC's adapters/carriers could be made to fit in the ITX bay. PSU would be tricky but MAYBE the TV PSU could offer an extra 60+ watts of "user power" 12V/24V DC to an internal molex connector and a little extra room to mount a DC-DC ATX PSU board? Maybe someone puts an FPGA board in there, whatever. Optional freedom bay FTW.
I know it sounds like a computer case at this point but I'd love a big ass All-in-one to neatly hang on the wall and run my Linux-Chrome Internet toasters with just a power cable and maybe Ethernet.
Top, side, and bottom mounting holes for optional speaker bars or custom speaker setups, cameras, accessories, decor, etc. Just locate a bunch of mounting holes, make the dimensions known and let the users or aftermarket fill in the blanks. If you offer audio, maybe let the user remove the speakers or replace them? Like maybe a bunch of M3.5/M4 holes on 100 or 150 mm spacing around the rear edge, closer spacing at the corners. A simple flat piece of sheet metal can be drilled and screwed to mount stuff. Or hell, mount the TV flush or frame it directly in reclaimed wood using those holes. Anything really. I cant tell you how many times I wanted to mount shit to the sides of my TV but cant. I even made a speaker bracket out of a piece of angle iron attached to the VESA mount and 1/4-20 screws to hang the speakers up higher off the sides because Sony's downward facing speakers are useless. But that is a big piece of metal and side holes would make my life easier. This is a nice way to enable modding.
Possible to accommodate a board that features an internal eDP, LVDS, DSI etc to the LCD controller? Not important but interesting.
DC power input? For a big 70" I can see low volt DC being impractical but if you plan to make smaller displays it might be interesting to have a 12 or 24V option. I work with industrial automation so I'm all about using 24V where I can. Also maybe a wide input DC supply for off-gridders running 12-60V solar battery banks. Maybe the power supply board and inlet are designed to allow AC-DC or DC-DC supplies installed/swapped in factory or field. And for DC in I'd want a pluggable screw terminal block aka "Phoenix blocks" as I don't like barrel jacks.
With all this potential I could allow myself to spend a lot of money on a hacker friendly TV. This is why people pay $1000+ for the MNT reform and framework laptop.
That said, I think there is a middle-ground here.
If its within your capacity, I'd consider allowing a USB connection. If I were able to attach a USB thumb-drive or an external hard-drive (powered though USB connection) and the TV provide a basic visual navigation system.
The nearest comparison is something like the current Roku USB app, or a more basic version of the Infuse App (https://firecore.com/), the library structure is a reflection of the file-system. I'll skip the details where a dedicated user can set the cover image for a given video by having a image filer with the same name as a companion to the MP4 etc...
I know that would be a huge jump, but I'd pay for it.
That's my main objection to many of these all-in-one systems: the built-in technology support will be obsoleted before the rest of the system fails due to old age. I much prefer a dumb TV with a separate media box/dongle that I can replace with a new model every year to paying for a TV with soon-to-be-stale features.