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Comment by Pxtl | Hacker News Reader

Because "broken window" is too often taken to mean "come down hard on loiterers, grafitti vandals, people who lack the money to maintain property standards, etc"... instead of focusing on violent crime.

Now obviously there's a real debate to be had about how severely petty theft and vandalism should be punished. I mean, George Floyd was killed over a counterfeit bill.

But once you get into violent crime everybody is on the same page.

But basically, in order to get all the violent crime under control, you need a hefty police force. And a hefty police force means a lot of cops roving around hassling poor people and people of color who are just trying to live their lives, which is what the left-wing activists get angry about.

Figuring out how to get effective policing without intrinsic racism/classism that always seems to come with that is a big challenge.

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> Because "broken window" is too often taken to mean "come down hard on loiterers, grafitti vandals, people who lack the money to maintain property standards, etc"... instead of focusing on violent crime.

The broken windows theory isn’t about violent crime, it’s literally about property crime and offenses like vandalism. The idea is that when that kind of petty crime goes unchecked, the crime situation in the area spirals, both in terms of quantity and severity, eventually leading to more violent crime.

You can disagree with the theory all you want, but to assert that the issue is that it should only apply to violent crime is to fundamentally misunderstand the assertion the theory is making.

I thought the issue was that "broken windows" was used as a metaphor for all low-level infractions, and not literally interpreted as "fix the windows and clean up the graffiti" as the studies recommended. This then got implemented as quotas on police departments, leading to opportunistic, biased policing and the de facto criminalization of poverty.

As a result, the term "broken windows" now carries a ton of baggage, and is sometimes used as a racist dog whistle.

Pretty much every phrase carries a ton of baggage to someone, it’s impossible to speak without offending at least one person.

What some, or even a majority, go on to redefine it as does not change its original meaning. If a place looks like a dump people will treat it like a dump. You and wherever you read this from is conflating the issue with racism.

Language is fluid. You can deny a new meaning, yet if you're in the minority then you may suffer for it.

Most engineers aren't working on siege works any more.

We will quickly end up with no words if we continue this language hijacking path. English is a very contextual language. If a phrase or word is racist then the entire sentence is racist. I can recall an instance where I used the phrase "you people" on the internet. Clearly impossible for me to know the peoples race I was speaking to, yet they claimed it racist because some racist people somewhere also speak English.

How about we listen to what people are actually saying instead of twisting meaning to fit a narrative to further control speech? For those that are offended by speech and are demanding, essentially, the removal of the first amendment, it is a learning opportunity that words don't actually harm, only actions.

The problem that US faces has been solved by other western countries. Australia has way more safer cities than USA. But the key is to not to politicise everything under the sun. Let the police do their job and whenever there is a misconduct it will be handled by the review board.

Though it’s not like Australia is perfect either: https://www.ccc.qld.gov.au/about-us/our-history/fitzgerald-i...

(And that’s just one state, every single state has had similar issues with this in their police forces)

That goes without saying that nothing is perfect. Even Toyota cars breakdown too (see turbo issue in Land Cruisers) but the fact is that they breakdown less than the other brands. Life is imperfect. We have to pick the least imperfect system.

Maybe the key is to be an island? Hard to reproduce in the US. Maybe the key is to not have a legacy of slavery? No something the US can undo.

Could be. But my point is, whatever it is, we need to address it. Living good and safe shouldn’t be a luxury.

You mean like Canada?

Most countries had slavery. Many still do. Using a legacy of slavery to not enforce the law is part of the reason liberal US cities are crime infested

Downvoted but not disputed of course lol

> whenever there is a misconduct it will be handled by the review board.

The core problem is that this very important part hasn’t been happening.

Agree. I should have been more clear. Independent review boards.

Nor do the police do their jobs, if their job is solving and preventing crime.

Might be a chicken and egg problem but countries with low crime rates typically have well educated police who apply deescalation, plus much higher social security and public service standards.

It’s very simple. People who are never looked after by their community, but only harassed, beaten and killed, will not see themselves as part of that community but as an enemy.

Violent criminals do not suddenly appear on the streets from out of a portal from another dimension. They start out as babies, then toddlers then children. Something goes very wrong, neglect and lack of guidance, developing a delusional reality of the world , and by the time they are adults are unable model how the world actually works and cope to sustain themselves. Desperation and short-term thinking sets in, and violent crime follows.

Social values really matter. Countries with low crime rates don't have them because the police are educated about deescalation. That is important too and I support that, but the police are largely irrelevant to the underlying issue. This is coming from someone who grew up thinking social conservative types and people going on about social values needed to relax. I was wrong and realized that when I had children. Children absolutely need stability, reassurance, love and guidance from their mother and father, it's absolutely critical.

"Something goes very wrong, neglect and lack of guidance, developing a delusional reality of the world"

violence is inherent to animal life and it does not require delusion. that's like saying an alligator is delusional for attacking a deer.

Talking about humans here, not alligators.

What percentages of beatings and killings are perpetrated by members of the community vs members of the police force, I wonder.

A test was done (in the Netherlands I believe) where they'd put an envelope with cash in a letterbox (sticking out, still visible). In a street with lots of graffiti, more people stole the envelope than in streets without.

Don't remember where, but I saw an economic paper that said that, while Giuliani's theory of brutalizing vandals to prevent murders didnt have any evidence to support it, New York saw a reduction in murders when the cops started responding to murder calls.

Police are good for exactly one thing: responding to violence with violence

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