Hacker News Reader

Comment by foverzar | Hacker News Reader

So, this is mostly a US-centric forum, but I wonder what is the take on this from the perspective of a Finnish person.

Is there any controversy or concerns of becoming a foothold for future conflicts? This whole thing has been dragging on for sometime now, had the opinions shifted over time?

View on HN

The decision to join NATO has had overwhelming support among the general population throughout the process. Over 80% of the population were in favor of joining when we applied for membership last year and the opinions have stayed around the same. According to a poll conducted in early february this year, 82% were in favor, 10% undecided and 8% against. Parliament votes were 184-7 last month when they approved the membership.

Joining NATO is widely regarded as the safe and rational choice. Russia already saw Finland as part of "the west" and Russia's attack on Ukraine meant that our international relations with them were pretty much destroyed. Staying out of NATO made no sense from that point onward. Why try to stay "neutral" with no formal defense pact, when Russia viewed us as hostile anyway?

So yeah, I would say that the vast majority of Finns feel safer now, and becoming a NATO member has been seen as a positive thing overall.

> Parliament votes were 184-7 last month when they approved the membership.

Most of the seven were also not re-elected in Sunday's election.

> Russia already saw Finland as part of "the west"

> Why try to stay "neutral" with no formal defense pact, when Russia viewed us as hostile anyway?

Good point, thanks for that perspective. Was there hypothetically any way Russia could signal if it was not the case though?

I was born when the Soviet Union fell. All my childhood I watched media like James Bond and played games like Command & Conquer about Russian invasion, saw my extended family suffer the generational trauma of war, and being male, am forced by threat of imprisonment to personally accept social responsibility for sacrificing my life defending our country from Russian invasion,

I'm pretty fucking relieved the nightmare is over.

Just hoping we can prevent WW3, or at the very least win it together.

I think you forgot the only Bond movies who dealt with direct Soviet threats were :

- From Russia With Love (Rosa Klebb secretly works for SPECTRE but is a KGB operative so let's count it)

- Octopussy (vilain's a defector)

- The Living Daylights (defector also)

It's in Goldeneye that is created the idea that James Bond constantly fought the Soviets. I don't fault you for thinking that it's an easy thing to illustrate your point, but I like my James Bond and I like him because he's always fighting weirdo rich assholes, not the Soviets.

I didn't forget anything. The Command & Conquer series has other themes too. Doesn't invalidate my point.

> I'm pretty fucking relieved the nightmare is over.

Ouch. Genuinely hate to be the bearer of bad news, but everything I know about politics (especially from Russian perspective) tells me that this is only the beginning and uncorking of a potential conflict.

I assume, you do not expect that NATO membership would put Finland into a direct hot confrontation with Russia, thus turning into a kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy?

> WW3, or at the very least win it together.

Eh, there will be no winner in WWIII - only how much everyone loses before they decide to strike some kind of eventual deal. And IMO the WWIII had already started by the modern military standards of multi-domain operations.

> I assume, you do not expect that NATO membership would put Finland into a direct hot confrontation with Russia, thus turning into a kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Neutrality is no protection against aggression. Vienna was famously one of the first targets for Soviet nuclear strike.

> Vienna was famously one of the first targets for Soviet nuclear strike.

According to your link in the other thread, that is assuming it was "ruthlessly" occupied by NATO.

In any case, the "end the game for everyone button" example seems like a poor choice. How did Austria actually fare during the Cold War? I honestly don't know too much about Austrian-Soviet relationships except for a few trade deals.

Is there a list somewhere?

No list, but some details are here: https://www.independent.ie/world-news/vienna-top-of-soviet-n...

>I assume, you do not expect that NATO membership would put Finland into a direct hot confrontation with Russia, thus turning into a kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Moldova, invaded (1990) and occupied. Georgia, invaded (2008) and occupied. Ukraine, invaded (2014, 2022) and occupied.

Finland, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Poland: Not invaded, not occupied.

> Moldova, invaded (1990) and occupied

> Moldova, independence from the Soviet Union (27 August 1991), constitution adopted (29 July 1994)

I genuinely wonder what is the source of that list. I assume "invasion" of 1990 is the Transnistria War?

Yes.

do you know that Moldova was "invaded" by Russians and Ukrainians together?

According to articles I've read polling indicates 80% support amongst the Finnish population

Well the PM who nursed this just lost the election. But I suspect most Fins agree with the decision.

Lost the election (while gaining seats) to a party which has been pro-NATO for longer.

... so she lost the elections, but most Fins support the ascension.

She has not gained as much additional popularity as other parties did.

That is true, but her Party received a higher percentage of votes in this election compared to the last one. If anything, her popularity increased.

Finns always agree with government decisions. If government policy is to stay out of NATO, finns will think that's the sound and rational way. If the government policy is to get into NATO, they will ask the media to support the idea and finns will change their opinion and think it's a splendid idea. Finns think as they are told to, like their neighbours in Russia.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com