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Comment by Overtonwindow | Hacker News Reader

You underestimate college students because that is exactly what we did in college. People went to their doctor, faked hyperactivity, and were given adderall which they then sold to other students. I'm sure your ADD is horrible but try telling someone taking these drugs to stop. They won't. They depend on it too much and it's become part of their personality, and their belief that it is what they need.

Just. Like. Oxy.

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Personally I'd really really appreciate if you would dial back the medication shaming a fair amount. As someone who can function with a lot of effort and the support of medication and who has gotten into several rough spots in life when I've suddenly run out of meds and have needed to motivate myself independently to refill them... please don't opine on what other people's experiences are.

Additionally, Adderall and the like aren't just like +2 INT boosts - the stimulants have a different affect on most people with ADHD than it would on a regular person... so whatever you've experienced abusing the medication is probably quite a bit different from what I'll experience using it.

Sounds "Just. Like. Oxy." in that people who have no idea what they're talking about go based on their gut feelings as if science and medicine should yield to their imagination:

I mean I'm sure your diabetes is horrible but try telling someone taking insulin to stop. They won't. They depend on not being in a diabetic coma too much! And not slipping into a diabetic coma becomes a part of their personality.

ADHD doesn't mean hyperactivity despite hyperactivity being in the name. For me not taking ADHD medication results in what your proclivity for drug abuse was gaining you: the super human ability to focus on one thing for hours and hours at a time.

The difference is when the drugs you were abusing wore off, you'd go back to being able to do other things. I'd just keep being prisoner of whatever I'm doing indefinitely. It's an awful feeling to know you have to do something else, you really need to switch tasks right now, but it's like you're a prisoner in your own mind, just stuck.

So subjecting myself to that isn't really something I'd willingly... is that surprising?

I mean I've personally requested lower doses of medications, leaned towards less "intrusive" delivery methods like metabolized extended release versions, and stopped when I was injured and unable to do much (being stuck mentally wasn't a big deal when I was physically stuck)

But even if someone else dealing with this doesn't want to do that, I don't blame them. It's an awful disease that deserves proper treatment. Some dumb drug abusing kid isn't going to change that.

That's only true if you squint real hard. Might as well say people are addicted to oxygen or food if you're going to oversimplify that far. Plenty of people are able to learn meaningful coping strategies for their ADHD and choose to go off medication (especially those medicated from a young age), or at least off of stimulant medication, choosing instead to treat their disease with non-stimulant options. You'd also have to ignore the fact that they're, umm, different drugs, and do different things. The pain relief granted by opiates, along with them being chemically addictive and the marketing put forth by Perdue Pharma leading to addiction, for which they've paid billion of dollars in fines. There have been no such issues for AmerisourceBergen Corp., Cardinal Health Inc. and McKesson Corp.

The thing about the drugs being different is the results on people's lives. Off medication and unmanaged, people suffering from ADHD go into depressive slumps of executive dysfunction and are unable to perform their EDLs (EveryDay Living activities; showering, putting on clothes, feeding one's self, using the bathroom, exercising), never mind things like cleaning, holding down a job or paying rent. Most are able to keep at the same dosage for the majority of their lives.

That's not what people happens to people chemically addicted to Oxy. They need more and more to get the same effect, and chase after it to the point that many have become hooked on heroin, absent a prescribed supply of Oxycontin. While on the drug their lives turn to shambles, getting fired from work and losing their jobs and then their housing and end up living on the street.

That difference is entirely material to the discussion. If people are able to make more of themselves on a particular medication, society is able to accept that a medication is good, rather than bad. That may be a tough pill for some to swallow, especially those that want to reject traditional societal norms for judging a person's life. Another tough pill is that the idea that Adderall blunts a person should really be considered a fringe belief these days, given how many people use Adderall to better their lives.

Are their people that abuse Adderall? Sure. Are their many more people that don't, and live much richer lives thanks to prescribed medication from a doctor? Absolutely.

ADHD is an ADA-recognized disability. I doubt you’d support secret limits on mobility scooter orders because college kids sometimes steal golf carts. Why is this different?

Because Adderall is 100% pure speed. A handful of Adderalls is more fun than a bag of cocaine (which is going to be more like 5% purity and adulterated with god knows what).

Don't talk out of your ass. Cocaine comes with a much, much bigger euphoric rush than even methamphetamine, which has a much bigger rush than amphetamine. If your coke is less fun than some focus enhancement, it's because somebody sold you a gram of baking powder.

Basically all stimulants can be categorized by a level of euphoric rush, and a level of focus they provide. Caffeine sucks at both, methamphetamine rocks at both, cocaine's good for a body rush but isn't very good for focus, and amphetamine comes with relatively little euphoria for a methamphetamine-comparable level of focus.

This is especially hilarious as I, a person with ADHD, am basically on speed whenever I loose access to Adderall. I would strongly encourage you to gain a better understanding of ADHD and other neurodivergent forms before continuing to speak on the topic.

>A handful of Adderalls is more fun than a bag of cocaine

Yeah, this is fear mongering; and I doubt any abuse you are seeing is actually happening on any sort of scale. To imply adderall is more fun than Cocaine/Cocaethylene is a completely strange assertion given cocaine's continued and greater penetration despite the fact it's a highly controlled schedule 2 drug. If you could have more fun with adderall, why would you spend more money on cocaine?

> given cocaine's continued and greater penetration despite the fact it's a highly controlled schedule 2 drug.

Not to take the wind out of your sails but adderall is also schedule II.

> Not to take the wind out of your sails but adderall is also schedule II.

OP was correct, cocaine is much more highly controlled despite sharing the same legal category. It’s only used in certain surgical procedures. You can’t get a prescription for it.

Maybe if you stop taking Adderall for fun you won't need to compare it to your bags of cocaine.

I take one pill a day, not a handful. Please stop this.

Mobility scooters can also be abused for a good time

A choice must be made. Either be more restrictive and controlling meaning that some people that need the drugs don't get them. Or be less restrictive and controlling meaning that some people you think shouldn't get the drugs get them.

There's other ways to realign incentives. A buy back program would do a lot honestly to restrict the supply. A lot of people who got them for legit purposes would still end up with a ton leftover when they would get their next prescription. If they were able to get more money returning them to the pharmacy or counting them towards their next prescription than selling them to other students, that's what they would do.

If we're still talking about ADHD medications then... I have no idea where you're coming from. ADHD medications are very tightly controlled - if you accidentally double dose a few times and need an early fill you're going to get grilled (or even denied) by the pharmacist. There is a small margin for error but for the most part people using ADHD medications get precisely what they need to get to the next drug refill and not a pill more.

> if you accidentally double dose a few times and need an early fill you're going to get grilled (or even denied) by the pharmacist

That's not a thing. Nobody is getting grilled coming in early for their stimulant medications. They just say "come back in a couple days" and "have a nice day." I've filled multiple stimulant meds in a period of 2 weeks from the same doc and same pharmacist. Neither care (I dumped out a drug that had side effects so I needed something else).

If people double up, after they run out they just don't have pills for a few days until they get another fill.

That's honestly pretty much what I said: if you run out and need to refill early it's a struggle. A lot of ADHD medications come with strong withdrawl symptoms so "don't have pills for a few days" for me will mean... day 1: sleep for like twenty hours straight and miss work, day 2: have massive headaches all day and miss work, day 3+: maybe be able to attend work? Certainly struggle to actually perform my job duties.

So running out of meds is something that's highly disruptive to my life and I'll always try and minimize gaps if they do occur.

>That's honestly pretty much what I said

You said " Nobody is getting grilled coming in early for their stimulant medications" ?

Okay then.

I am prescribed to take one pill each day. I prefer to keep this up on the weekends because I like being able to function even when I'm not being paid to. I can only fill a prescription once a month. The pill bottles have 28 pills in them.

What possibly would be left over?

Most people I knew who were on them weren't taking the dosage they were being prescribed. The side effects were too much taking it daily, so they would just use it if they were spending a lot of time in the library that day, and would end the month with half the bottle still by the time they reupped. Just because you have ADHD and benefit sometimes from these meds doesn't mean you feel great being on them 100% of the time nor need to be taking them if you are not doing anything mentally demanding that day. It's basically meth lite, after all.

My experience is that I feel significantly better when I am on my meds and am able to function consistently. I envy people who function well enough off their meds that they can be choosy about when they take them. I have no experience with meth but my understanding is that it is only superficially similar to meth.

Where would leftovers come from?

Most ADD individuals skip doses periodically. Sometimes because they forget (we're treating an illness that causes you to get distracted, remember), or they slept in on the weekend and don't want to mess up their sleep schedule, or they simply don't have anything they really need to be able to pay attention to that day, or maybe they don't need their second dose in the day that particular day.

Unlike, say, antidepressants, there's no real backswing on off days: you just revert to your pre-medication attention levels which, especially in the case of people who got diagnosed later than usual, they have coping mechanisms for.

This results in the average ADD-medicated patient having a couple pills leftover each month.

do you understand how often there are issues filling one's adhd prescription on time even before the shortage? Almost every month the pharmacy is out of stock for a couple days. Very few people sell their couple of extra pills, they are saved for the inevitable delays in filling scripts.

And honestly? Why is this even being discussed, as if college kids getting adderall to study for math tests is some societal scourge ruining lives or something? Who gives a shit and why is it an issue that justifies making life difficult for people who are prescribed it?

What’s the big deal? The definition of ADHD is extremely fuzzy anyway. Why not just let whoever take them that wants them?

Well, IMO, it puts everyone into a mental arms-race reminiscent of steroid use in bodybuilding competitions.

If you told me I was going to take a standardized test where only the top 10% make the cut, and everyone serious about winning is taking a mental PED, then yeah I am going to feel intrinsic pressure to step-up and also engage in that mental arms race. I would've been just as happy to not do that if I were given a more level playing field.

It's no secret that there is a war going on to commoditize attention. I want to live in a world where people hone their ability to push back against having their attention leeched not one where everyone raises their baseline to cope temporarily.

I also have to think that, long term, it's kind of disrespectful to those with ADHD. If expectations of attention rise due to uptake in mental PEDs then where does that leave those who were originally disadvantaged? They lose their ability to exist on a more level playing field.

Bit of a tangent, but many years ago when I was wrapping up college, I was in a Calc III class over summer. The course was being taught at an advanced pace and basically everyone in the class was struggling after the first exam. The professor addressed the class about the poor performance and then called out a student in the front row. The professor said, "You! You did well on the exam. What was your secret to studying?" and, not missing a beat, the student responded, "Adderall!" I took the hint, bought some from a friend, and suddenly found myself passing the class with flying colors. It felt good in the moment, but honestly only because I wasn't being graded on a curve. It would've been wildly demoralizing if I'd been in direct competition with my peers.

I know life isn't fair and it's a pipedream to clamber on about desiring a level playing field, but surely we can agree that physical fitness competitions are more interesting when they are separated between "natty" and "enhanced" competitors? And that if we eliminated that separation that those without PEDs are disadvantaged? I don't see society making that sort of separation for mental fitness and so I am concerned about letting stimulants loose on the population.

What is "disrespectful to people with adhd" is fucking with our med supply in order to prevent the horrific scenario of someone studying for a math test past their bedtime. Like, surely you see that right?

I want to move on with my life, instead I need to play games every couple weeks filling my prescribed meds because people are resentful that their peers back in college might have studied longer for a test? Are you fucking kidding me.

I'm still in recovery from abusing addy off-prescrip. I was citing an experience I had a decade ago which shaped my opinion of stimulants for the rest of my life. I wasn't trying to offend you personally. I was just sharing an opinion. Chill.

> I am concerned about letting stimulants loose on the population.

They already have been. It's not hard at all to get an Adderall prescription. Just Google "ADHD symptoms" (the main one being trouble focusing) then go to your doctor and tell them you have those.

I'm not interested in protecting the people that game their doctor. They decided on their own they wanted the drug and dishonestly represented themselves to obtain it. That's their own prerogative, if that causes problems then that should not result in punishment for those acting with honesty.

This is not "just. like. Oxy." in so many cases. Many of these were people in pain management with zero deceit involved on the side of the patient.

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