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>FWIW, macs are high quality and last a long time.

They are, though.

I'm on my 4th MacBook and all have lasted me at least 5 years. The reason I upgrade them is to get more speed/specs, not because they stopped working, I even sold them and made back some small $$.

PS The touchbar thing was nonsense, I didn't jump on that, as well as other gimmicks. Still the MBP is a solid option.

That's an anecdote. The GP comment indicated that they have seen this across an org, meaning more than a single sample.

The plural of anecdote is not data.

I use my MBP 6-8 hours every. single. day. I plug two monitors to it and leave everything on 24/7 (I only dim the screen but never close it). I'm sure I put way more use into them than the average user. I once went close to two years without a restart.

No other laptop I've owned has been as reliable as the MBPs.

... but yes this is still an anecdote.

> The plural of anecdote is not data.

Of course not. An anecdote is bad data. A diverse sample is good data.

Is 5 years any kind of achievement? I’m currently running a generic hp laptop from 2012(?). Not a single issue. Just had to insert one more 8gb ram, to keep chrome happy, and change the ssd once. Everything else still works fine.

I guess I got lucky too. Because I bought a 2012 MBP (the first generation that had the HiDPI Retina displays) and it lasted me over 6 years of daily, hard use. It was still in decent condition but my job at the time got me one of the newer ones. Of course, that one had the bad keyboard and had to be swapped.

2016-2020 the dark ages but outside of that 4 year period (that Apple has firmly reversed course on), Apple's reputation for excellent laptops is well deserved.

The #1 thing preventing Apple from getting into S-tier is user-serviceable storage.

Baking on the memory? It's frustrating and gimps the device lifespan, but arguably unavoidable with the bandwidth Apple is targeting. Without replaceable storage though, every Apple Silicon device is effectively a ticking time-bomb. These devices will all hit their TBW limit long before they're unusable, and Apple refused to anticipate this because... it side-steps their pricing scheme?

The current Macbook lineup is a step in the right direction, but far from perfect. Even ignoring my hundred gripes with MacOS, I think there are clear hardware improvements they can make with future iterations. None of these improvements seem particularly profitable though, so I'm not counting on Apple adding them.

Constant backups are essential when using a computer without user-serviceable storage. That or mounting another [network] drive and doing all your work from that instead of internal storage. Otherwise you'll be without your data for hours if not days/weeks whenever something inevitably goes wrong (not even with the storage itself) and you can't simply pull the drive to continue working on another computer.

M1 won't boot without internal storage.

The point of the parent comment was not about saving data from the drive, but that the devices are landfill material once they hit tbw limits on their drives, even if they were otherwise in good condition.

Sure it will. Just checked, found a bunch of articles with 5 step instructions where one of the steps is hold the power button down.

> The M1 boot process requires a working SSD to boot macOS. The SSD contains a Signed System Volume that is cryptographically sealed by Apple. No seal, no bootable System.

> So if the internal drive on your M1 Mac fails completely, even an external bootable drive won't boot. Yep, your Mac is bricked.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/how-bad-is-the-m1-macs-ssd-fai...

Well you'll not hit TBW limits if you're using another drive anyway.

Unless you have configured your Macbook to not use Swap, it will constantly write to the built-in drive when memory pressure is high enough.

> Constant backups are essential when using a computer without user-serviceable storage.

Constant backups are a necessity even if your computer has RAID-6 storage built on enterprise-grade storage.

Your office can catch fire. You can be hit by ransomware. Multiple devices in the array can fail in rapid sequence (happened to me once). Your computer can get stolen (happened to me, twice).

Have an offsite backup always on hand.

Or just not caring about any data you have locally.

High speed internet has largely rendered local storage obsolete for most users.

However, Apple’s base model is frankly silly. A solid 2TB NVME drive is only 150$, slapping the equivalent of 20$ worth of storage on a 1,500$ laptop is crazy.

Maybe you were lucky, maybe I was unlucky... Even before 2016-2020, I had 3 MacBooks that just straight up crapped out on me. Two were the nvidia graphics chips that would come desoldered or something. Another one just died one day for no reason. I am not trying to say that they are bad laptop, but on average, I think they are just as prone to dying as any other laptop. I don't think they are particularly "excellent." I've worked on hundreds of laptops, and I can't really say one brand does any better than the rest. Some make expensive laptops that are total garbage, some make cheap laptops that are really good. Assuming the laptop is spec'd how you need it, the quality is going to come down to your luck, and that's about all.

I also had a 2016 with a bad keyboard, they replaced it for free because it was a well known terrible keyboard and it probably didn't hurt that it was still under applecare. I continued to use that laptop into 2019, it did need a battery replacement (it got puffy, it happens) that I paid for out of pocket. Then I gave that laptop to a friend and she used it until she finally thought it was too slow/big (it was a 15") and bought a used air.

A failure != a brand new laptop, especially with applecare.

IMO chromebooks are worse but cheaper so you feel better just tossing them out. Windows laptops are worse .. so your position is Apple sux bucause the laptops fai sometimes. But window laptops fail more ... so ...

so what? Hardware fails sometimes, Apple has great support and actually own up to defective products. Sure I'm a little miffed that I can't generally fix them myself (and especially miffed that they solder storage onto a mainboard and don't use something like m.2). But every last apple laptop i've owned that I have replaced for speed reasons has gone to someone else who's used it for years after i've been done with it. (Well save one that took an unfortunate tumble into a lake.. no saving that one, RIP last macbook I ever owned with an optical drive)

> Apple has great support.

Apple does not have support good enough for professionals, my colleagues are suffering with defective MacBooks until they can justify a full replacement, because Apple repairs cost a lot of time, while Lenovo sends a repairperson with tools and replacement parts to my office.

I was on business in UK, keyboard broke, and Dell showed up next day and the tech had a US keyboard in his van.

My Dell XPS shit itself, unbootable while blinking memory error diagnostic codes, a day before I had to make a flight. Dell scheduled service for me the next day when I was meant to be on my flight, so I called them to explain and they sent a tech to my home 3 hours later that afternoon.

On the other hand, an Apple store once took over 3 weeks to order a replacement battery for my macbook air. I never even received an explanation for this incredible incompetence. And when I finally got the battery, the apple store employee made sure to add insult to injury by criticizing my android phone...

It's night and day. My take is that Dell has something to prove while Apple rests on their laurels.

I had a keyboard swap done (topcase) in 2 hours in the store. When I've had repairs go to the depot i've had it back in two days.

I've had motherboard, screen, keyboard, 4G modern swaps, all at my office.

The MacBook Air has been solid since inception, and that machine is good enough for the vast majority of people.

My biggest issue with the early Airs is that they were so aggressive with how thin the display is, that the LCD is often damaged by the bag you keep it in from the outside.

A replacement display is basically 70+% the cost of the entire machine.

AppleCare had to replace two of them on my Sandy Bridge MacBook Air. They blamed the bag I kept it in(when replacing it the second time), but they also sold me the bag.

It kills me that I can only get ONE external monitor. It would otherwise be perfect.

There are adapters that let you use multiple and bypass that limit. Kensington has a few.

This one is pricier but also doubles as a docking station/100w PD:

https://www.kensington.com/p/products/device-docking-connect...

They have some cheaper, more basic models too.

edit: for the record I think this limit is stupid and the biggest flaw of the Air. You're right that other than that, it's a damn near perfect daily driver.

I couldn't agree more - I was shocked when I discovered the Air can't natively drive two displays, even with many docks. The only real solution are things like that kensington dock's display-over-USB hack which is not as reliable as a native monitor connection in my experience, and requires additional driver software on your OS :(

I just took it for-granted that every laptop in this price range on sale today will by and large be able to drive two external displays, but nope!

I ended up using a "double wide"/32:9 style monitor - the Samsung CRG9 - these 32:9 panels can be had in 5120 x 1440 resolution, which is exactly the size and res of two 27 inch 1440p panels side by side but in a single display. Works great on the Air, although its not a super cheap option.

> https://www.samsung.com/ca/monitors/gaming/super-ultra-wide-...

Which comes with drawbacks. Video is sent out compressed over USB protocol which requires CPU cycles, more resolution + moving images = more CPU grunt required. Plus there is the risk some update will break the driver making your dock useless.

The chip in the Air is no different from the Pro. And the Air has enough unified memory to drive >1 external display at high resolution.

This limitation is purely artificial/for market segmentation purposes.

I think you're right, but the irony is the segmentation isn't working - in my experience no customer notices this drawback on the Air until after they've bought it. Everyone (quite rightly) assumes a 1000 dollar+ laptop will probably drive two displays in a pinch.

I don't know anyone who went "Ah! only one monitor support!? I better move up the range to get that 2nd display support..." etc. You would really need to get into the weeds on the spec sheets to notice ahead of purchase.

I actually find many more people doing the opposite - choosing to move "down range" to the Air for the form factor, given it still has a great CPU. These power users who choose based on the great form factor get hurt the worst on this.

The M2 MBP also can only drive 1 external display. The M2 Pro and M2 Max variants can drive more. Apple only put two display controllers in the M1/M2 chips which is why they support so few monitors.

It's still for market segmentation but there is a hardware reason.

What are the cheaper options? We use a lot of MacBook Air M2s at work, would really like a cheaper solution!

Check out the DisplayLink stuff. I think it works pretty well. I even devote one DisplayLink screen to security cameras (4-6 640x480 cameras at 15fps). I also use that screen to play YouTube videos, if I'm following along with something

It handles it just fine at 8-10% CPU usage on an M1.

Seems far more likely that you've been incredibly unlucky. I've had many Macs and have never had battery expansion or logic board failures. I know many people that still use their 2013-era machines and they're still chugging along.

The thing is, they go from "works great" to "totally broken" with virtually no in between, and no ability of the owner to do anything about it.

Parent: big org with many machines

You: sample size = 1

Maybe parents opinion is coloured negatively by hearing about failing machines of colleagues. They even said that Windows machines were worse.

Maybe you have been lucky.

Zero snark intended.

I can add a little bit of anecdata as well.

My wife has been using Macs for a long time now while I use both Macs and Dells with Linux and, occasionally, a Lenovo or an HP. We have gone through at least 10 Macs in total and none of them failed in less than 8 years. One got a puffy battery (replaced in warranty), one got chipped when it fell from the desk (a white MacBook, Apple replaced the bottom, keyboard, and palm rest for free, even though the machine was out of warranty, but was listed in a recall for the palm rest). Some HDs died and some flash got upgraded. While it's not a daily driver, even the white MacBook is still going strong (as is the Bondi Blue iMac, the eMac, and the dual G5, none of which get much uptime these days, but boot up just fine every month or so). Both our current Macs (a 13" Pro and an i5 Mini) are from 2014 and will be replaced by M2 ones because they can't get the newest OS (while I can get away with it, my wife won't for long due to professional compliance rules).

No consumer-grade PC laptop or desktop of mine lasted that long in active use (some x86 servers did, as all the Sun and IBM PPC/POWER stuff) without extensive overhauling. Even my Thinkpads got cracks after five years.

The thing that worries me the most with the newer Macs is the flash storage - when it dies, I don't expect them to be repairable. I hope Apple includes M.2 slots in the future, even if the laptops need to be bulkier because of that.

> All of these devices basically sat on a desk in a ~68F office most of the time.

That's the problem. You need to discharge the battery once in a while or it builds up gas and expands. I had a 2015 that was perfect until I stopped going anywhere in March 2020. So I basically didn't unplug it for a year, and then the battery got explodey.

So now that I still work at home, I make sure to unplug my laptop once in a while just to drain it down a bit.

Edit: Not sure why I'm getting downvoted here. You still need to unplug your older Macs that don't have the software and firmware updates that do this automatically now.

I'm simply pointing out why OP had battery problems.

> So now that I still work at home, I make sure to unplug my laptop once in a while just to drain it down a bit.

That's still a defect; the laptop battery management should do that for you. As an example, the Dell laptops I'm used to automatically drain the battery to ~95% when plugged in all the time (it appears to be at 100% while on AC, but when you unplug it you can see the true charge).

Yeah it took them forever but Apple laptops finally do this as well (holding the charge at 80% instead)

Macs drain to 80% when plugged in all the time.