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Comment by flexie | Hacker News Reader

Ukrainian NATO membership does benefit NATO in several ways:

- Ukraine is the only country in Europe to have fought off NATO's main adversary

- Ukraine has a large, powerful and experienced army, much larger than those of most NATO countries

- Ukraine in NATO will be seen by the older NATO members as a adding another buffer state

- Ukraine in NATO will be seen by the newer NATO members such as the Baltic countries or Poland, as having another ally bordering Russia

- Ukraine is a new democracy and is (was) a rising economy. It benefits NATO to include these in NATO

- The populations of most European NATO countries are in favor of Ukrainian membership.

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- Ukraine is the only country to have fought off Russia, except Finland, Lithuania, Poland, Germany.

- Ukraine's army if frankly in tatters, being propped by massive supplies of ammo, weapons and mercs

- Ukraine is already a buffer state by virtue of its geographical position

- your last 3 points are simply appeals to emotions and in no way arguments for Ukraine's membership.

All these wars were before NATO existed.

Ukraine’s defense is a formidable army which has stopped the advance of what most experts thought was the second most powerful army in the world, and the fact that Ukraine is supplied weapons, training and ammunition from NATO countries doesn’t change that. It only adds to the point that NATO itself recognizes that Ukraine belongs in the alliance.

If Ukraine loses the war it will cease to be a buffer and become part of Russia.

Then one could also argue that no NATO country has ever fought off Russia.

Ukraine barely stopped the Russians, even with the massive help of NATO (both before and after the 2021 invasion). It doesn't follow at all that NATO thinks Ukr is a member. Ukr is just that - a buffer country that should not be taken by Russia. This is not meant in an offensive way, think of it as a neutral country like Switzerland or Austria.

> Ukraine is the only country to have fought off Russia, except Finland, Lithuania, Poland, Germany.

It (presuming it succeeds) will be the only country to have fought off the Russian Federation, or anything referred to (even if only somewhat loosely) as “Russia” in the third millenium.

Fought (and in some of the cases you cited got steamrolled by) the USSR in WWII is... not particularly relevant.

> Ukraine is already a buffer state by virtue of its geographical position

Its not if it becomes a Russian satellite.

>Its not if it becomes a Russian satellite.

Indeed Ukr has always been in a tough spot. Align with NATO or Russia and become a target for the other - that was the only choice I guess, but it was never explained why actual neutrality was never sought (like Switzerland). The only explanation I have is that both the US and Russia run covert ops to put puppet regimes in place.

> it was never explained why actual neutrality was never sought (like Switzerland).

Have you looked at a map? (Moreover, it was sought, and it didn’t work, so they choose another option to avoid the outcome.whuch had happened that they didn’t like.)

Not only have I looked at a map, I have the misfortune of living quite close to Ukr. You probably don't even need to bc you live far enough to be safe and lecture others on the internet.

> Ukraine is already a buffer state by virtue of its geographical position

Ever heard of Belarus?

Same thing, it's just that they have aligned themselves with Russia. Your point is?

That geographical location alone is insufficient.

Didn't stop you from commenting on that alone.

>Ukraine is the only country to have fought off Russia, except Finland, Lithuania, Poland, Germany.

Finland sure but the Winter War ended due as much to the valor of the Fins as to Stalin getting ready to fight Nazi Germany. Also Russia won the rest of your list taking took over Poland, Lithuania, and half of Germany. that was the whole WWII easterrn front/cold war warsaw pact thing.

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