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Comment by intsunny | Hacker News Reader

Now that Framework is coming out with AMD models, I find myself suddenly less excited about Linux on laptops from all other vendors.

Sure maybe this Thinkpad has nice hardware, but this laptop has three major flaws all others do:

1: Too many sub-variant models: Did you get one with a Qualcomm wifi chip, or an Intel wifi chip? Linux users do not have the luxury of not caring.

2. The ODM's never design these laptops with Linux in mind. Often a simple BIOS update is enough to make or break that experience.

3: No safety in numbers, no network effect: Maybe a few hundred people buy this Thinkpad model/variant to run Linux. The numbers simply are not enough for Lenovo and friends to financially care. There will likely never be enough eyes on this machine to make it a first rate experience.

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There are plenty of enterprises that run linux in server farms as well as workstations. You have to remember that Lenovo has plenty of experience with linux this way. They have official ISOs and their metapackages are delivered with distro installers.

Lenovo, Dell et al gets their devices certified with Canonical and Red Hat. OEMs usually work really closely with them.

https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/solutions/ht511743-how-to-d... https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2020-Janua... https://ubuntu.com/certified/202206-30347

There is a caveat to all of this - you will only ever be able to run the LTS version for the lifecycle.

With framework, you just hope that they follow intel/AMD reference design to the dot and that intel/AMD gets all the bugs out of the way.

Last time I checked finger print reader and camera user authentication (hello equivalent) wasn't working. Has it changed ?

Arch wiki claims the laptop mentioned in this article supports the fingerprint reader out of the box with `fprintd`. You do have to be careful about purchasing the variant with the proper webcam (e.g. don't go for the 2.8k OLED model), because only one of the two variants works.

https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Lenovo_ThinkPad_X1_Carbon_(...

Hello auth is Windows only by design. Fingerprint readers work just fine.

You can use howdy: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Howdy

For ThinkPads they care a lot more. For example my P14s Gen 2 AMD lets you set the sleep state to S3 in the BIOS. This is labeled as "Linux". My W520 lets you disable the discrete Nvidia card in the BIOS when other laptops of the same time period would not and would assume you're using Windows and it's driver to disable the card. When graphics switching laptops first launched Linux support was super flakey and having the Nvidia card on all the time was a huge power draw. Even getting the card turned off was a chore on my Asus which lacked a BIOS toggle.

No they aren't perfect at Linux support but ThinkPads are generally much better than the other big vendors including Lenovo themselves.

I own both the ThinkPad X1 Carbon and the Framework 13.

Removing technical specs from the equation, the Framework is cool, but the Thinkpad is generations ahead in terms of its build quality, tactile feel, and overall ergonomics. And it's not by a small margin - it's immediately palpable.

This is for several reasons: they're two different classes of notebooks with two different budgets; Lenovo has a lot more experience building laptops; Lenovo has access to a more sophisticated design, supply chain, and assembly process which they leverage to shape and mold the overall form better.

I'm hoping Framework catches up. I really like what they're trying to accomplish. But for now, theirs is not the laptop I slide into my backpack.

> the Framework is cool, but the Thinkpad is generations ahead in terms of its build quality, tactile feel, and overall ergonomics

I also own both, and I feel the opposite. The Framework feels far better physically to me, especially the keyboard & larger touchpad. The rubberized texture on Thinkpad feels cheaper than the aluminium frame imo, the feet on the bottom of my Thinkpad all broke off within 6 months and the paint has all come off round the corners remarkably quickly (it gets carried in a backpack for 20 minutes most days plus a few flights, but nothing crazy).

There's rough parts on the Framework too that they're still improving (I agree the hinges are a touch flimsy, though in my 12th gen at least not problematically so) but overall it's been a notable improvement.

We all see the world differently! :)

The Thinkpad X1 Carbon's "rubberized texture" is a valid comment. It's not rubber - it's an expensive carbon composite shell that makes the machine light as a feather. It's an acquired taste, but I like it and definitely appreciate how lightweight it makes the machine. It's not as sturdy as aluminum, but it's a fraction of the weight and not cold to the touch. It does feel expensive though. Like aerospace carbon fiber.

The Thinkpad's paint (textured finish) does wear and smooth out over time. That's a valid point. You will see darker worn regions around the palms and keys. If you're really handling the device, there's a chance that over years of use the dye at the corners begins to lighten. I've only seen that after five years of very heavy use, and it's only the very edge corners. Less than millimeters. You can probably Google and find example photos.

The Thinkpad's ever so slight departure from the standard keyboard layouts feels better to me. The keypress mechanics themselves feel more premium. Again, different stokes. I did enjoy replacing the Framework's keyboard for one of my choosing, though.

The Framework touchpad is a cheap knockoff of a Mac haptic touchpad. The depressed click feels gross. I'm hoping they improve this. I really don't like it.

I've never worn off the rubber feet of an X1 Carbon, but I have on other laptop models. You've given me a new fear as that's one of my biggest pet peeves. :P

I guess my biggest endorsement for the X1 is that I've owned two X1 Carbons (2016 and 2022) and plan to buy a third in five or six years, whenever my current one begins to show its age.

I'll probably try the new and upcoming Framework 16 at some point, but I won't get one this year and probably not for some time.

I also prefer the rubberized carbon shells to bare aluminum, but let's not swallow their marketing pitch whole - what you're touching is in fact a rubberized plastic. Carbon fibers are (almost) always encased in a resin, which would be shiny and slick unless the manufacturer paints it in that grippy rubbery stuff. My old XPS had a similar coating on its carbon fiber, and even my old shitty HTC phone had a similar coating on its plain plastic back.

> Too many sub-variant models

This is a strength: many parts you can swap (or install later: put that empty WWAN port to a good use!)

> a simple BIOS update is enough to make or break that experience

In my experience, not with Lenovo, but personally I rarely update the BIOS. In fact, I prefer very old BIOSes, hoping for a bug that'll lead to interesting work or exploits: I don't want say the keyboard microcode holes plugged by marking the flash regions read only: that'd lock me out of exploiting them later, say to alter the keycodes!

> No safety in numbers, no network effect:

This is a very VERY wrong take: thinkpads are what linux hackers use the most, on both end of the spectrum:

When they are brand new, you have highly technical people and companies doing fixes or original work (ex: linaro work on the MHI driver for the LTE/5G chip). That's expensive, and likely outside the reach of Framework.

Then when they're old, you've got students, hobbyist etc who find new ways to teach old dogs new tricks: like motherboard swaps (X62, X210 etc)

The framework is interesting, and 10 years from now, maybe it'll be the right choice. Not now, not in the next 5 years.

It's at best a niche choice for people who don't want to tinker too much, and prefer something "average": you won't get bad surprises, but you won't get good ones either.

I like foldable OLED, nice hardware and all that you won't find in a framework now. Maybe later, which is why I really hope they'll be successful!

> Then when they're old, you've got students, hobbyist etc who find new ways to teach old dogs new tricks: like motherboard swaps (X62, X210 etc)

Yup. I'm going to break a few taboos here and post this: https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/338007901...

The window XP. The ricing, the stickers, the business / quirky users, everything is so on point. I'm saving this, thanks you.

The programming socks...

Plot twist: it's the same person

(Top comment from reddit a few days ago)

Trans, furry, plural... sounds about right. It's missing a Rust crab sticker.

> Not now, not in the next 5 years.

I wonder how long it'll actually take Framework. ThinkPads are built on experience going back to the first one by IBM Japan in 1992 and have certainly evolved through the years. The modularity of the Framework means that they can sell things in batches, so newer hardware becomes available as they make them. The question is how much time/money/effort they'll put into iterating the frame itself. Since they don't have to wait for a generation to elapse, the laptop frame team can just keep iterating as often as they're allowed to. A physical case issue with a gen 1 X1C Thinkpad had to wait until the gen two X1C were ready. The framework just has to wait for a factory to have available capacity and to have the funds to pay for it, decoupling the laptop's frame from the hardware inside of it.

I don't see that as a problem of iterations, but scale: Framework just doesn't have the same engineering capacity as Lenovo (at least, not yet). They are bound to make errors, or make suboptimal choices because the optimal ones are costly. It's the same for smaller manufacturers like GPD.

> A physical case issue with a gen 1 X1C Thinkpad

Physical cases issues with thinkpad are extremely rare. Comparing the framework case to any random X1 thinkpad, I know which one I'd pick without hesitation.

> decoupling the laptop's frame from the hardware inside of it

That's addressing the wrong problem - and it's nothing special: Framework could have started like the X62 project and offered motherboards for current thinkpads.

It would have been less ambitious, more expansive and would've reduce the market size (as paying for a thinkpad + a framework motherboard would be strictly greater than just a thinkpad and making do with say the Thinkpad keyboard if you don't like it) but it would have guaranteed a better results.

I sincerely hope they succeed, because more choice is always better, but right now, they'll have to be reinventing the wheel for a while.

I think you underestimate the Thinkpad commitment to Linux, and the effect the community has. I'd like to know officially, but since they target workstations there are probably a low but countable % of users that run Linux. They officially support it for many models, and sell a few models with it installed. Their people are passionate about it, give presentations etc. I've never experienced the hardware switcharoo for low level hardware like wifi chip, they do that for storage and display panels, but that doesn't matter for Linux compatibility.

For example, where I work (Red Hat), Thinkpads are the standard laptop for Linux. (Not sure what % overall run Linux but it's a very non-trivial number.)

By any chance, would you have some arch users? I'm preparing a custom archiso and I'd love some testers with easy access to different configurations

I doubt there are many. People who are actually developing for RHEL locally obviously run RHEL. Most everyone else running Linux runs Fedora, whether self-supported or, now, company-supported--or CentOS Stream.

Nevermind then! I thought given the large volume there could be a few.

"No updates unless you use Windows" and broken hardware don't sound like "commitment to Linux"

Not sure what you mean. Firmware updates are supported by fwupd.

Then why did they have to keep Windows on to apply all the firmware updates?

Because they don't know about fwupd? Why are you not asking them instead of a Hacker News comment?

Because you claimed something that contradicts the article. Do you have a source for what firmware updates can be applied on this model with fwipd?

Yes, the source is LVFS, which is where fwupd pulls packages. Here's an example of a system firmware package for that machine: https://fwupd.org/lvfs/devices/com.lenovo.ThinkPadN3ATR.firm...

There are other devices within the machine which also receive firmware updates, like the NVME drive and the Thunderbolt controller and so forth. It is absolutely trivial to find this information, to the point if you're running any fully-functional GNOME or KDE deployment the software update tools (GNOME Software, KDE Discover) will in fact prompt you to update when something is available.

Nice. Thanks!

I own this model and update it with fwupdmgr all the time

> Maybe a few hundred people buy this Thinkpad model/variant to run Linux

My employer alone would be responsible for several hundred X1 Gen 10s running Linux across various parts of our company, I suspect.

My employer easily thousands. Maybe tens of thousands.

Now imagine if all that money went to a vendor that actually cared

It's capitalism. Nobody actually cares.

I'm very happy with my personal X1 Carbon, too. I'm very much NOT happy with the Librem laptop.

I personally am glad to live in the days when Linux is an option and will be quite annoyed if it goes away again due to others' short-sightedness.

> NOT happy with the Librem laptop.

Then choose a different one?

> It's capitalism. Nobody actually cares.

Right, for Leovo anyway. So long as you continue to give them your money in exchange for lackluster Linux support, you will continue to get lackluster Linux support.

I get orders of magnitude better support from Lenovo than Librem. And that's just from the company. And the community is also much better for Lenovo, support wise.

>> NOT happy with the Librem laptop.

> Then choose a different one?

I did. Lenovo. I don't have a problem.

> I personally am glad to live in the days when Linux is an option and will be quite annoyed if it goes away again due to others' short-sightedness.

Lenovo's Linux market is huge. It's not going away. People buy them because they work great with Linux.

My own experience is the polar opposite, so YMMV.

I think if Asahi Linux delivers, Apple laptops will take over the Linux laptop market. Good performance per watt, fewer models that sell in great numbers, great displays, and they aren't shitty plastic boxes that flex and creak. If you have a hardware problem, reload macOS and you can get it fixed in the Apple Store across town.

My main problem is a dead laptop if the storage dies. (I still own a M1 Air anyway)

Really wish I could run MacOS off of an external drive as a backup option but it is extremely picky(I've tried multiple drives, USB3.2 and TB3). Eventually being able to boot Asahi off of an external would be ideal, but if the SSD dies there will be no booting with how apple has done things.

This is becoming a harder pill to swallow with how long I'm trying to keep machines. Which sucks because Apple has put out the only ARM chip worth a damn for daily driver computing.

I even tried convincing myself to live off of a Microsoft Dev Kit just so I could have replaceable storage that doesn't brick the machine on death, but dear lord Qualcomm needs to put out some reliable drivers for windows, let alone linux.

My main problem with framework is that it's ugly.

That's what everyone says about my ThinkPad.

While they are clutching their gaudy HP laptop.

Hp laptops are just plain terrible.

So how much does the "ugly" factor into your purchase decisions?

for me functionality and ergonomics decide the purchase, if the device is "pretty" is very much down the list. I'm aways surprised by people who purchase computers for work worrying about what colour they are. Who cares, you're looking at the screen and keyboard, not the case when you are using it.

Do I have to use something that is ugly when I pay a lot for it? Nope, they can keep it. I detest the control freaks who deliberately gimp certain parts of the notebook, just, because, they can or just simply doesn't have the eye for it, because they are so cheapskates to hire an industrial designer and/or their standards are subpar.

For example who thought that for EU keyboards the left shift should be short, gimped? And put the slash right next to it. WHY? Why crowd the keyboard keys together? Why fuck up the arrangement of the arrow keys? Why reorder or remove basic keys? Leave the keyboard the fuck alone, just do not try to innovate there. Leave the keyboard fonts alone too, just copy what macbook or thinkpad uses. Or hire someone who worked with fonts to recommend something similar.

Sometimes they also fuck up how your palm rests on the keyboard, by not giving enough space. Or make the touchpad off center. Add idiotic things to the touchpad, like a calculator (asus), or a scroll area. These are all factors that are letdowns.

Why put a 70% or so srgb shitty screen into a 1000+ USD notebook?

And the list goes on.

So if it's ugly (see above) I'm not buying it, so easy.

From what I see it's just a basic, clean, laptop.

Yeah, but it looks ugly. That's the only thing that keeps me from getting one.

Do you consider Purism Librem 14 looking nice?

Looks a tad bit better, but the font used on that keyboard... is one of the worst I've ever seen. You can exorcise devils with that. Just open it... whooosh, and it's done.

There's only one laptop that's universally regarded as beautiful: Apple MacBook Pro/Air.

Also the most powerful and durable laptop, with the longest battery life.

Yeah it's one of the best. Sadly the M1/M2 chip is problematic for me.

> Apple MacBook Pro

Notchville? :-)))

> universally regarded

I disagree.

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