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Comment by ESTheComposer | Hacker News Reader

The SEC can't declare everything a security, then enforce it without providing evidence or guidance to companies trying to be regulated, and then further make videos on twitter declaring that it's as easy as signing a form to be regulated (lying).

I've seen you before in threads and I know you have a giant anti crypto slant, but try to use some logic and not just cower when you see government acronyms without questioning them

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Also news flash to folks in these threads, the rest of the world is pretty much on board with crypto and making pretty big advancements. Whether people like it or not, this is here and it's staying (by definition you can't shut down things like Bitcoin).

We either catch up as a country and allow innovation or we lost a pretty big future position.

LOL. It’s totally fine to miss out on the latest wave in Ponzi innovation.

The “rest of the world” is certainly not on board with crypto. China and India are blocking large parts of it. EU has new legislation in the pipeline. Even the Bahamas don’t seem quite as excited about crypto as they used to be…

Yeah yeah, I've heard this before (internet anyone?). EU does have new legislation which is great, it's something the US should have. China has been some activities but promoted others, and India has a corrupt banking system where you have to bribe officials to even get a license for anything, so not sure why you think that's a good example.

There are also many other European, Middle Eastern, African, and South American countries embracing and promoting crypto as a new payment system for various reasons.

The fact that you think it's just a ponzi shows how close minded you are and tbh not worth "debating" with.

Also the irony here I think for you specifically is Finland is one of the most crypto friendly countries in the EU lmao

I don’t see anyone in Finland paying for coffee with crypto. Or paying their employees. Or paying their mortgage. Or raising money for their company. You know, any of the many things that happen every day in the actual financial system; the things that make an actual economy work and produce wealth and wellbeing.

So what does crypto actually do, if it’s not used for anything productive even in the most crypto-friendly countries? The best that its proponents can offer seems to be “one day it could do X” and variations on “it will work when everybody does it right”, a position oddly similar to true believers in Communism.

Many years ago I used to be quite positive about crypto. Smart contracts sounded clever and useful. The more I looked at the technology and the people involved, the more obvious it became that it’s fundamentally deficient and controlled by scammers. Crypto has had many, many chances to prove itself, and as far as I’m concerned, it failed at everything and doesn’t deserve yet another chance.

How so? The KYC/AML attitude and invasive banks seem to make it basically impossible to function a business. Can't even use a cryptocurrency ATM without identifying yourself through a Finnish bank account and being a long-term resident, making them useless for travelers. Localbitcoins was originally one of the biggest services and it was destroyed by Finnish regulations: a "local" p2p trading service that hilariously banned people from even using cash because of the hostile Finnish environment

>by definition you can't shut down things like Bitcoin)

Tomorrow, the US government could declare that no US company can do business with Bitcoin or enable someone to do business. Effectively declare sanctions (similar to North Korea) against the entire ecosystem.

King Biden can do this without due process?

The courts have traditionally been very deferential to national security-based arguments. Whether you agree or not (I’m mixed), that’s the situation on the ground.

The Supreme Court has gotten way more libertarian recently.

Famously, the US banned alcohol and drugs and some states even banned homosexuality. In none of those cases did it work out as intended. The only meaningful outcome was the destruction of individual liberties. Hmm, maybe that was the real goal all along.

Nobody is on board with crypto. And while governments can't shut it down, they can strongly discourage people from putting money into it, by simply enforcing existing regulations, which is what I think governments will start to do now.

> the rest of the world is pretty much on board with crypto and making pretty big advancements.

https://www.reuters.com/technology/visa-mastercard-pause-cry... "Visa, Mastercard pause crypto push in wake of industry meltdown"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/01/28/faceboo... "The social media giant’s shuttering of the Diem project "

https://www.coindesk.com/web3/2023/03/13/meta-will-end-suppo... "Web3 Meta Will End Support for NFTs on Instagram, Facebook"

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/10/13/el-salvadors-bitcoin-holding... "El Salvador has lost around $60 million on its bitcoin bet one year into a nationwide crypto experiment. The use of bitcoin in El Salvador appears to be low amid the market volatility."

Want more?

I too can cherry pick:

https://www.coindesk.com/web3/2023/03/24/amazons-nft-plans-t...

https://www.cryptonewsz.com/what-the-recent-news-of-xrp-mean...

https://gagarin.news/news/blockchain-games-dominate-the-mark...

https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2023/03/24/el-salvador-presi...

https://fortune.com/crypto/2022/12/19/evolution-crypto-web3-...

Alright, let's see, what's the easiest to engage with in this , games.

https://www.marketsandmarkets.com/Market-Reports/blockchain-...

> The global Blockchain Gaming Market size in terms of revenue was estimated to be worth USD 4.6 billion in 2022

https://www.statista.com/outlook/dmo/digital-media/video-gam...

> Revenue in the Video Games segment is projected to reach US$372.00bn in 2023.

So that's about one percent of the market.

And the growth trajectory is not at all clear to me. https://cointelegraph.com/magazine/can-p2e-gaming-grind-away...

> In its 2021 annual report, The Blockchain Game Alliance says that NFT games generated $2.32 billion in revenue in the third quarter of 2021,

What you've cherry picked are wishful thinking articles about how everything will just be amazing and great in crypto land. Some day. You just wait.

The GP's citation of Visa and Mastercard are cherry-picking? What companies would be more relevant?

The source for those claims is "people, who asked not to be named". Could be literally anyone.

Meanwhile in the same article:

> That does not change [Visa]'s crypto strategy and focus, however, the spokesperson added.

and:

> A spokesperson for Mastercard said: "Our efforts continue to focus on the underlying blockchain technology and how that can be applied to help address current pain points and build more efficient systems."

Isn't it crazy how different those quotes are from the headline? I'd love to know who read those official company statements and then decided to write the headline with the claim from an anonymous nobody instead.

Also: https://twitter.com/cuysheffield/status/1630600556187099137

The OP’s original comment referred to the rest of the world, which I read as those outside the US. My understanding is that Visa and Mastercard are American companies with footprints outside the US yes, but they are still US companies.

What world are you living in my friend? I can speak for India, definitely. Crypto is treated like gambling, it has been brought under anti money laundering laws. The biggest sporting league in the country has banned any crypto association and advertising.

It is just a decentralised ponzi. The sooner it fades away from mainstream discourse, the better. It will live on in the fringes of the internet for habitual gamblers to continue to bet on.

Can’t they? It seems to be within their legal powers, and the elected officials directing them clearly approve.

No they can't, which is why they've been taken to court in the past and will in the future again.

Also to your elected officials point, no not all of them are happy and have spoken out on both sides of the aisle, and even other agencies like the CFTC have come out against the SEC in the last year for trying to enforce by action instead of regulation

Why should crypto currencies not be considered a security asset?

Because they don't satisfy the Howey Test, which legally defines a security.

https://kurtalaw.medium.com/the-howey-test-the-supreme-court...

The way the absolute vast majority of this cesspool is used satisfies all the criteria.

I thought the status was that BTC was considered a commodity, and basically all the rest were considered securities?

The chairman of the Commodities and Futures Trading Commission, Rostin Behnam, told the Senate Agriculture Committee on 09 March 2023 that Ethereum, the second-largest cryptocurrency next to Bitcoin, is a commodity. "We would not have allowed the Ether futures product to be listed on a CFTC exchange if we did not feel strongly that it was a commodity asset," he elaborated, stating that his agency has "serious legal defences" to support their case.

https://decrypt.co/123032/cftc-chair-says-ethereum-is-a-comm...

Ah, good to know, thanks!

Well, embarrassingly I made a typo, it should have been 08 March 2023, but no matter.

That is correct. Gary Gensler, head of the SEC, had publicly stated that he considers Bitcoin a commodity, not a security.

But it is not correct that "all the rest" are considered securities.

Also, the SEC does not determine what is and is not a security. That is determined in court. Gary Gensler can give guidance on what the SEC will take to court, but he is not the final word on what is a security.

All fair points.

Why shouldn't they just be considered currencies? It is something a group of people agree have value and they are willing to exchange with each other for goods and services.

The SEC does not care if you bring back Euros from vacation and they are worth more money when you find them in your backpack a year later and exchange them.

Because it isn’t a currency. Get back to me when we can agree that “I’m buying if you’re flying”.

You might be able to simulate a currency, but that does not make it so.

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