Crypto Faces Legal Reckoning as SEC Prepares Action Against Coinbase
wsj.com
wsj.com
"Coinbase has taken an increasingly defiant stance, publicly criticizing the SEC and urging regulators to write new rules for crypto rather than enforce existing ones."
No, they're asking the SEC to provide evidence and the SEC has been ignoring them and trying to have everything be a security.
"The firm has accused the SEC of stifling innovation and has spent millions of dollars lobbying Congress in hopes of bypassing regulators through new legislation."
Again no, they're not trying to bypass regulators whatsoever. Coinbase has posted again and again and again that they want to be properly regulated including by the SEC, but the SEC refuses to work with them.
It's extremely frustrating because people who know what's actually been going on can clearly see the bs, but most people who read this article (including a ton of the anti crypto crowd on HN) will just latch onto this as if it is truth.
I've seen you before in threads and I know you have a giant anti crypto slant, but try to use some logic and not just cower when you see government acronyms without questioning them
We either catch up as a country and allow innovation or we lost a pretty big future position.
The “rest of the world” is certainly not on board with crypto. China and India are blocking large parts of it. EU has new legislation in the pipeline. Even the Bahamas don’t seem quite as excited about crypto as they used to be…
There are also many other European, Middle Eastern, African, and South American countries embracing and promoting crypto as a new payment system for various reasons.
The fact that you think it's just a ponzi shows how close minded you are and tbh not worth "debating" with.
So what does crypto actually do, if it’s not used for anything productive even in the most crypto-friendly countries? The best that its proponents can offer seems to be “one day it could do X” and variations on “it will work when everybody does it right”, a position oddly similar to true believers in Communism.
Many years ago I used to be quite positive about crypto. Smart contracts sounded clever and useful. The more I looked at the technology and the people involved, the more obvious it became that it’s fundamentally deficient and controlled by scammers. Crypto has had many, many chances to prove itself, and as far as I’m concerned, it failed at everything and doesn’t deserve yet another chance.
Tomorrow, the US government could declare that no US company can do business with Bitcoin or enable someone to do business. Effectively declare sanctions (similar to North Korea) against the entire ecosystem.
https://www.reuters.com/technology/visa-mastercard-pause-cry... "Visa, Mastercard pause crypto push in wake of industry meltdown"
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/01/28/faceboo... "The social media giant’s shuttering of the Diem project "
https://www.coindesk.com/web3/2023/03/13/meta-will-end-suppo... "Web3 Meta Will End Support for NFTs on Instagram, Facebook"
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/10/13/el-salvadors-bitcoin-holding... "El Salvador has lost around $60 million on its bitcoin bet one year into a nationwide crypto experiment. The use of bitcoin in El Salvador appears to be low amid the market volatility."
Want more?
https://www.coindesk.com/web3/2023/03/24/amazons-nft-plans-t...
https://www.cryptonewsz.com/what-the-recent-news-of-xrp-mean...
https://gagarin.news/news/blockchain-games-dominate-the-mark...
https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2023/03/24/el-salvador-presi...
https://fortune.com/crypto/2022/12/19/evolution-crypto-web3-...
https://www.marketsandmarkets.com/Market-Reports/blockchain-...
> The global Blockchain Gaming Market size in terms of revenue was estimated to be worth USD 4.6 billion in 2022
https://www.statista.com/outlook/dmo/digital-media/video-gam...
> Revenue in the Video Games segment is projected to reach US$372.00bn in 2023.
So that's about one percent of the market.
And the growth trajectory is not at all clear to me. https://cointelegraph.com/magazine/can-p2e-gaming-grind-away...
> In its 2021 annual report, The Blockchain Game Alliance says that NFT games generated $2.32 billion in revenue in the third quarter of 2021,
Meanwhile in the same article:
> That does not change [Visa]'s crypto strategy and focus, however, the spokesperson added.
and:
> A spokesperson for Mastercard said: "Our efforts continue to focus on the underlying blockchain technology and how that can be applied to help address current pain points and build more efficient systems."
Isn't it crazy how different those quotes are from the headline? I'd love to know who read those official company statements and then decided to write the headline with the claim from an anonymous nobody instead.
Also: https://twitter.com/cuysheffield/status/1630600556187099137
It is just a decentralised ponzi. The sooner it fades away from mainstream discourse, the better. It will live on in the fringes of the internet for habitual gamblers to continue to bet on.
Also to your elected officials point, no not all of them are happy and have spoken out on both sides of the aisle, and even other agencies like the CFTC have come out against the SEC in the last year for trying to enforce by action instead of regulation
https://kurtalaw.medium.com/the-howey-test-the-supreme-court...
https://decrypt.co/123032/cftc-chair-says-ethereum-is-a-comm...
Also, the SEC does not determine what is and is not a security. That is determined in court. Gary Gensler can give guidance on what the SEC will take to court, but he is not the final word on what is a security.
The SEC does not care if you bring back Euros from vacation and they are worth more money when you find them in your backpack a year later and exchange them.
You might be able to simulate a currency, but that does not make it so.
Not really. It's entirely reasonable to expect regulatory agencies to lay out in painstaking detail and with perfect clarity the necessary criteria for anyone to know what is or isn't within bounds, and not take 10y of mixed messages to do it.
To many people here whenever a crypto post is posted, it's unreasonable to ask for clarification from the officials who make and enforce the law.
The SEC is saying "you might have securities, and your various businesses might violate our laws", and Coinbase asking "which ones and how?", and SEC basically twiddling their thumbs and saying, "fuck it, you're breaking the law", and Coinbase still asking "BUT WHICH ONES?!?!?"
The MAGA comparison is very apt
But when it comes to Crypto there's almost literally nothing interesting to come out of it except:
- scams
- ponzi schemes
- other get rich quick schemes
- schemes that ignore any and all reality
- schemes that are better done using almost literally any other technology (including Brainfuck and MS Access)
- Vitalik's long-winded essays that are either superficial takes on some distant future or technical reports on fixing something in ethereum
And yet for over 10 years now we've been hearing that "there are good and interesting things happening in crypto".
Edit: oh, there's some usefulness there as well: circumventing government rigulations to pay for something illegal, or to be an unregulated uninsured "at your own risk" alternative to Western Union or Moneygram
As such in new areas it does act to stifle innovation because people who are risk averse have to wait until someone else does something, the regulator enforces, it goes to court and the court decides.
When I worked at a fintech I actually was in a meeting with the OCC[1] and a prospective bank client we talked them through our plans and they said "when you get big enough you'll need to register with us and we'll have some requirements for you". We said we wanted to start that process right away and so asked for the requirements so we could start baking them into our software and they literally said "We'll call you when we think you're big enough. Until then we'll call you if we think you're in violation". They wouldn't tell us what the regulations were or how to proactively avoid breach.
This is entirely unlike other jurisdictions where you can generally find all the regulations on the regulator's website and in some cases (eg Singapore) the regulator will actively work with you on developing new regulation if they think what you're doing is innovative and valuable.
For example, here is the German crypto asset regulation. It's incredibly straightforward and easy to find. There is no grey area about what the regulator does and does not consider a security, what you can and cannot do and what existing national and EU regulation they consider to be included. [2]
[1] I should say this was not crypto related but this is a playbook that US financial regulators seem to adopt broadly
[2] https://www.dechert.com/content/dam/dechert%20files/knowledg... or https://www.nortonrosefulbright.com/en/knowledge/publication...
As I understand it, only registered securities can be traded in the USA. But how would a cryptocurrency be registered? Would Vitalik Buterin shoulder his rainbowunicorn bag, go to the SEC and say "Uhm, in 2015, I had this idea of a new protocol that kinda forms a distributed computer. And it has this thing called eth that is the gas for this, uhm, computer. And somehow people now People value this gas at $200B. Can I haz make it a security?".
Other than Bitcoin, which the SEC recognizes as not having an "issuer", crypto currencies would have to be registered by their issuer as securities. This means filing an S-1 form. An S-1 form tells who's behind the issue, their backgrounds, where the money is going, the business plan, and balance sheets. All filed under penalty of perjury. Every publicly traded company in the US has been through this process.
Any US registered broker can trade any registered security.
There are lots of restrictions that crypto companies don't like. You can't self deal. You can't wash trade. You can't clear your own transactions. Issuers, brokers, clearing services, and exchanges are different organizations. FBX argued to Congress that they didn't need all that separation of function. Now we know that was because it would have interfered with stealing the customers assets.
If the SEC wants to regulate a currency (currently the domain of the CFTC and OCC) they either need to explain why they believe money is a security or have the Congress explicitly grant them the authority.
The USDA for example can't all of the sudden decide they want to regulate forests because an edible plant might grow there.
Factually, they don't. They just have to issue the regulations and enforce them, and if people, disagree, then they have to explain their rationale in the ensuing litigation.
Just as Congress doesn't need to explain their Constitutional authority when passing a law, either.
They don't because it is clearly written down in checks notes the constitution.
Factually, our government doesn't operate on whims and feelings or work it out in the courts later. All laws must show a clear linage to the enumerated powers of congress.
Again, they aren't acting with omnipotent power. Push come to shove, they'll go to court where they will explain their position. Coinbase can try to counter their arguments then if they wish to.
Often, it is not. But they don't have to (except as a fairly recent, self-imposed rule of the House of Representatives) explain any argument that it is, in advance, nor even when they do is the government bound to only that advance argument on its Constitutional justification.
Similar, regulatory agencies , while they tend to identify their statutory authority when making regulatory actions, aren't required to justify their claims of authority in advance. When they are contested, it is resolved in the courts, whether its Congress or executive branch regulators.
> Factually, our government doesn’t operate on whims and feelings or work it out in the courts later.
Factually, that’s exactly what our government does a lot of the time.
Ideally (in many people’s view) that’s not what it should do, but facts and ideals are different things.
The House requires that, as a rule of the House.[1] Which is why, when you look up bills today, you'll see a "constitutional authority statement". It's mostly a reminder that, unlike state legislatures, Congress does not have a general police power. Most of Congress's regulatory authority derives from its power to regulate interstate commerce, which is pretty much everything commercial now.
[1] https://scholarship.law.ufl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=...
Sure, but that is a self-imposed rule that is as easy for the House to change as it is for the House to pass anything else, so its effectively discretionary.
https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/15-s12-blockchain-and-money-fall...
When I heard he was going to lead SEC I was very optimistic about the future of crypto and its regulation as Gensler seemed to have a very favorable view of (at least) Bitcoin.
How naive...
Also can't read the article, have to set up a free account. Their password field doesn't let Chrome suggest a strong password, it doesn't even let me create with with a $ sign.
Was it related to XRP and trying to trick you into being the first N user to sign up for some staking thing?
I got that too, even if the email I received it on is not associated with Coinbase, and somehow that email managed to break through the spam filter although it was clearly spam.
Could be a mix of actual freakout and trying to pump crypto so insiders can exit… kind of part true believer reaction and part grift.
It kind of reminds me of how a cult reacts when the authorities start coming around. It’s the end times! Double down! Brew up the kool aid!
If Coinbase’s shitcoin listing operation were shut down by the SEC, the VCs would lose their primary dumping endpoint to retail crypto buyers in the West. There’s an urgency to both pump up prices now and to pretend that the SEC action is nothing.
scams.
here, there, everywhere, non stop ads trying to get you involved into the next crypto grift.
I am so elated it is all completely coming to an end.