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Comment by jossclimb | Hacker News Reader

I am fascinated by this stuff and DMT and part of me would love to try it. It appears most people experience the same entities such as the self-transforming elf machines. I read another transcript where somebody met their intergalactic girlfriend and the absolute bliss of their reunion and how it felt like they have known each other for hundreds of years.

A nice short of Terence McKenna discussing the DMT Elves https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tGPM7ZxgOM

Another example DMT Girlfriend (can't find the original transcript) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHLpB38LNg4

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I believe whats happening at a certain level all brains encode an abstract conscious reality-stream in a similar way, and as such distortions to the brain manifest in similar ways for everyone. The fact that DMT entities are so common tells us that the perception of other consciousness's is a primitive attribute in however our world-state is managed by the brain. Flip a few random bits in an image, you get pixels. Flip a few random bits in the brain, you get conversations with entities. The error mode tells you about the data format.

So here's my conjecture. The brain attributes a "spirit" to every object the same as it attributes color and size and shape. Linguistically we use it all the time to reason about cause and effect. "The piston wants the wheel to turn, but it is too tired". Some cultures literally believe in these spirits.

Have you tried it?

DMT? Personally, tried but it was a bad order that simply failed to work as advertised. Psychedelics more generally? Yeah.

And some literally don't believe in them. Each person practices their own style of epistemology, usually using binary. "Whatever gets you through the night" they say!

Personally, I think it's fun to dream what might be the case, or what could be some day. :)

Yep. Sounds similar to the shared phenomena of the "Hat Man" entity that a lot of people suffering from sleep paralysis report.

https://thehatmanproject.com/

I am curious about what humans experiencing sleep paralysis perceived before the invention of the hat.

It was always hat man. The hat was invented by people with sleep paralysis seeing him.

I entertain the idea that spirits are real in a similar sense that our consciousness is real. Spirit is an emergent property of humans. When we are angry and vengeful the "spirit" of war is possessing "us". We are not our former self and lose quite a bit of control. This spirit is eternal, contagious, cross cultures.

Our ancestors put a name and images on something abstract but we discarded it because it didn’t fit our modern materialist viewpoint.

The fact that schizophrenics can get together and agree that they're all being gang stalked puts serious doubt in my mind that machine elves from DMT are anything close to real.

I would advice against prolonged use or using it often. I have seen people around me change their behavior irrationally and erratically, and not for the good, as in not being able to regulate their emotions in a sensible fashion. So while fascinating perhaps, I don’t think it is always used responsibly.

As seems to be the case with most things. Everything done in moderation. Overconsumption of anything will bring harm in different ways.

I also believe some changes to ones personality is less than ideal, but more ideal than say, chronic opioid/stimulant/etc use over time

Many would say the same about friends taking antidepressants as IMA, ISRS, ATC… or others DANGEROUS stuff as opioids. An average 2023 pharma shopping bag is highly dangerous when not used responsibly !

Moreover, DMT does not induce any addiction, which may be a cause of its absence on drug dealers and pharmacorps shelves.

We should celebrate studies of medecines that have a chance to help people without damaging them.

Sounds like DMT can damage them as well. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26166234/

Correlation, not causation:

> Laboratory studies revealed elevated creatinine kinase level indicative of rhabdomyolysis.

Rhabdomyolysis is associated with a range of medications, drugs and toxins.

Many medications increase the risk of rhabdomyolysis.[12] The most important ones are:[4][9][11]

    Statins and fibrates, both used for elevated cholesterol, especially in combination; cerivastatin (Baycol) was withdrawn in 2001 after numerous reports of rhabdomyolysis.[13] Other statins have a small risk of 0.44 cases per 10,000 person-years.[8] Previous chronic kidney disease and hypothyroidism increase the risk of myopathy due to statins. It is also more common in the elderly, those who are severely disabled, and when statins are used in combination with particular other medicines, such as ciclosporin.[13][8]
    Antipsychotic medications may cause neuroleptic malignant syndrome, which can cause severe muscle rigidity with rhabdomyolysis and hyperpyrexia
    Neuromuscular blocking agents used in anesthesia may result in malignant hyperthermia, also associated with rhabdomyolysis
    Medications that cause serotonin syndrome, such as SSRIs
    Medications that interfere with potassium levels, such as diuretics

Poisons linked to rhabdomyolysis are heavy metals and venom from insects or snakes.[4] Hemlock may cause rhabdomyolysis, either directly or after eating quail that have fed on it.[4][11] Fungi such as Russula subnigricans and Tricholoma equestre are known to cause rhabdomyolysis.[14] Haff disease is rhabdomyolysis after consuming fish; a toxic cause is suspected but has not been proven.[15]

Drugs of recreational use, including: alcohol, amphetamine, cocaine, heroin, ketamine and MDMA (ecstasy)[4][11]

Yes, that is because they both effect serotonin and serotonin receptor density.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1014862808126

Everything in moderation, especially moderation.

"Sensible" is a function of the frame of reference (culture, era, religion, profession, upbringing, ingested information/"facts", etc) of the observer.

> I have seen people around me change their behavior irrationally and erratically, and not for the good, as in not being able to regulate their emotions in a sensible fashion

Their hearts have probably changed as well, and likewise, not for the good.

This is typical drug "addiction" behavior. I call it a "negative addiction" (copyright me).

In a positive addiction you see the drug that makes you feel better. In a negative addiction, the drug leaves you feeling worse but there is not craving for it. This occurs with drugs that do not affect dopamine or the dopamine receptors.

It's interesting that these Elves never seem to provide any useful, actionable information, especially information that their human interlocutor would have had no way of knowing. Instead it's just vague, mystical fluff.

One take on psychedelics I find intriguing is that instead of providing actual deep insights, they simulate it. While you are high, everything just seems profound and mystical, but there is really nothing there, it is an artifact of the distorted brain chemistry.

I find this makes sense because in my experience, people that regularly take psychedelics do not seem wiser or more insightful to me than people who don't. There is probably some way in which they boost creativity by making thought processes less rigid, which helps in things like music and maybe some kinds of technical innovation.

Yeah, using this drug to break down the compartments of the brain will lead to increased creativity (which is all hallucinations are, daydreaming on overload), it will not last. And the more you use DMT the more you will need for the same effect.

Why do you think that you need more for the same effect? Everything I've read states that ayahuasca doesn't induce tolerance

They don't know, they're talking out of their rearend.

DMT acts on the HTR2A and HTR2C receptors. When you activate HTR2C receptors at high levels the nerves respond by changing the number HTR2C receptors. This is called having an "effect of receptor density".

You can read about it in this study: (I know what you are going to say, that this proves one cannot get habituated to DMT But that is wrong adn you will need to read the second study to understand why.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00913...

Because drug efficacy changes with receptor density and cellular microenvironment, we also examined the properties of DMT in native preparations using a behavioral and biochemical approach."

One difference was evident in that the 5-HT2C, but not the 5-HT2A, receptor showed a profound desensitization to DMT over time. This difference is interesting in light of the recent report that the hallucinogenic activity of DMT does not tolerate in humans and suggests the 5-HT2C receptor plays a less prominent role in the action of DMT.

https://www.cureus.com/articles/62522-5-ht1a-and-5-ht2a-sign...

Furthermore, abnormal receptor density ratios are strongly associated with positive and negative symptom severity, which are typically assessed using the Scale for the Assessment of Negative Symptoms

In addition, Hurlemann et al. (2007) proposed that 5-HT2A receptor density was also decreased in the At-Risk Mental State patient subgroup, regardless of conversion to psychosis [4]. The progressive decline in subcortical 5-HT2A receptor density could provide an indicator of conversion to schizophrenia.

The people I personally know who got over depressions and processed traumatic experiences from their childhood would disagree.

It's by no means said that it's a form of insight that helped them. First, that's a self-reported quality, and self-reporting is very unreliable. Second, it's not the only effect that psychedelics have.

Just spitballing and I have no particular expertise.

I do not have experience with Ayahausca, but I do have experience with Psylocibin, LSD, Ketamine, Salvia Divinorum, and a few other things. Psychedelics disrupt the Default Mode Network (this has been shown in brain imaging studies), which the brain process which covers internally directed thought, self-reflection, self-criticism, etc, and that this disruption appears to be what helps many people overcome ingrained patterns of negative thinking.

The trouble appears to be that this state of epiphany following a psychedelic experience is not permanent, I have heard figures of six months following a psylocibin experience. Therefore, to keep achieving this affect repeated doses would be needed which may have a negative effect, further studies may tell. However it may provide time window to allow other treatments to work, in the same sense that antidepressants are supposed to be paired with therapy.

I'd always heard that psychedelic experience provides similar effects to a deep meditative experience and thought "well, who wants to do that boring meditation when you can just take a magic potion and be done with it" ? However, meditative and mindfulness practices, for those it helps, would seem to be far more sustainable than any drugs. I have lately been reading The Craving Mind by Judson Brewer, and the RAIN (Recognise, Acknowledge, Investigate, Note) framework it prescribes has been useful in reducing negative ruminations and undesired cravings.

Currently I am completely sober from all substances and am using mindfulness and meditative practice to find a more sustainable path to peace within myself. I have no desire to take any substance which would jeopardise this.

"Many people are experimenting with the drug ecstasy. I heard you say once that a lie is sweet in the beginning and bitter in the end, and truth is bitter in the beginning, and sweet in the end. I have been meditating, but I don't have the experiences people report from the drug ecstasy. Is the drug like the lie, and meditation the truth? Or am I missing something that could really help me?"

You'll find this article very relevant:

https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/04/21/universal-love-said-th...

This is what I come to HN for. Thank you.

It may just be the ineffable.

I love reading the trip reports on Erowid:

https://erowid.org/experiences/subs/exp_DMT.shtml

I can't post the link because I'm at work but you might be interested in the DMT Nexus forum. Lots of trip reports and treasure trove of information related to DMT/Ayahuasca.

Same here. I've read a lot of them. And I haven't read a single one that made me want to try it. My psyche treats any state as permanent, and I think most of these trips would probably drive me insane. Inb4 I need a psychedelic trip to break out of that psychic mold.

> Inb4 I need a psychedelic trip to break out of that psychic mold.

I literally feel like this could be the case for me. I'm unable to lucid dream because even if I go into it knowing it's going to be a dream, hell even if I go into a daydream, my brain will instantly realize it's seeing or experiencing something and assert that it's reality and there's no need to question it because it is certainly real.

It's so annoying because it affects more than just dreaming, it also makes it impossible for other people to convince me that any of my memories are even slightly embellished.

I like reading trip reports on trains.

(Drugs only give you a different experience!)

The Machine Elves thing is fascinating. I would chalk it up to a sort of culturally shared hallucination, where people have heard of them and are primed to expect them, except for that I had an experience on DMT long before I had heard of this phenomenon where I saw such things... I called them "engineer aliens," I shit you not

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