Psychedelic brew ayahuasca’s profound impact revealed in brain scans
theguardian.com
theguardian.com
My experience:
- tastes like mud
- it’s recommended to vomit after taking it, but I felt too self-conscious because we were all together in the same room
- the first part of the trip was wonderful as I spent 2hours in bliss seeing colored lights, I still remember this feeling fondly
- the next 2 hours were bad as I saw myself as a kid alone crying in recess, but it did help me see past trauma I hadn’t resolved yet
- for the following month, I felt 10x more present in my body and alive.
- I got more confrontational which almost got me into fights, but also got me laid
- after 1 month my state went back to normal, this made me sad since I loved my other, 10x more confident self
- it seems the reason it lasted so long is because I couldn’t vomit in the first place, so the “medecine” stayed with me longer
Overall awesome experience and would love to do it again.
> it seems the reason it lasted so long is because I couldn’t vomit in the first place, so the “medecine” stayed with me longer
I highly doubt that, it was probably metabolized and out of your system in a few days max. What you describe are classical "afterglow" symptoms.
DMT behaves as an agonist at both 5-HT2A and 5-HT2C receptors. There is nothing more to the magic than that.
P.S. I have the same experience as being on DMT and I do not take DMT and for some reason I am on disability for it. So tell me again how this is beneficial?
I know my worth but no one cares, they will not listen to me because of my overly creative mind. Very few people here can understand the connection I make.
It made me a better person because it had to. It forced me to self reflect. Why do you all need drugs to do that?
Having taken several neuroscience classes, I think that claim is a gross oversimplification and an overly reductionist take on the incredibly complex topic at hand.
> So tell me again how this is beneficial?
I can't answer that question as I have made no statement about any purported benefits or lack thereof.
When someone takes prozac and tries to stop, they have withdrawal effects. Prozac increases serotonin which increases receptor density.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1014862808126
Why should this be any different from DMT?
I have been studying neurobiology for 20 years. I thought a lot of things that I found out were wrong.
1. The results of this study are about long-term treatment, not a single dose.
2. The study makes absolutely zero claims about the epiphenomenal effects of receptor site increases/decreases, as far as I can see. That is your interpretation (with no evidence.) Sure, people describe withdrawal effects after quitting a drug that made them feel good, and there might be a correlation with decreasing receptor sites and those withdrawal symptoms, but you have not established any causal links, the main point I asked you about.
3. In the original comment you associated the generally positive effects that the OOP described as a consequence of decreasing serotonin receptor sites. Yet then you make a claim based on this study that decreasing receptor sites cause negative withdrawal effects. It very much seems like those two claims contradict themselves? Honestly a bit confused here what you're trying to say.
> I have been studying neurobiology for 20 years.
Well that's impressive. May I ask what your h-index is?
DMT acts on the HTR2A and HTR2C receptors. When you activate HTR2C receptors at high levels the nerves respond by changing the number HTR2C receptors. This is called having an "effect of receptor density".
You can read about it in this study: (I know what you are going to say, that this proves one cannot get habituated to DMT But that is wrong adn you will need to read the second study to understand why.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00913...
Because drug efficacy changes with receptor density and cellular microenvironment, we also examined the properties of DMT in native preparations using a behavioral and biochemical approach."
One difference was evident in that the 5-HT2C, but not the 5-HT2A, receptor showed a profound desensitization to DMT over time. This difference is interesting in light of the recent report that the hallucinogenic activity of DMT does not tolerate in humans and suggests the 5-HT2C receptor plays a less prominent role in the action of DMT.
https://www.cureus.com/articles/62522-5-ht1a-and-5-ht2a-sign...
Furthermore, abnormal receptor density ratios are strongly associated with positive and negative symptom severity, which are typically assessed using the Scale for the Assessment of Negative Symptoms
In addition, Hurlemann et al. (2007) proposed that 5-HT2A receptor density was also decreased in the At-Risk Mental State patient subgroup, regardless of conversion to psychosis [4]. The progressive decline in subcortical 5-HT2A receptor density could provide an indicator of conversion to schizophrenia.
> That is your interpretation (with no evidence.)
That is what is called a hypothesis. Do you ever have an original insight or do you just walk around nixing creative thought because no one ever thought of it before?
I mean you focus only on the study and you cannot see the connection because you so myopic.
> Well that's impressive. May I ask what your h-index is?
It is people like you who keep science in the dark ages.
I cured my schizo-affective Bipolar disorder without medication. What have you done?
These systems are likely deeply tangled up in your biology. Robert Sapolsky has a Stanford lecture series on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNnIGh9g6fA
Well worth a watch!
Perhaps this experience when bundled with a professional could have great impacts that are permanent, as long as you don't start fighting the therapist I suppose! The opposite could also happen, I don't know. Would be interesting to see studies on this.
A nice short of Terence McKenna discussing the DMT Elves https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tGPM7ZxgOM
Another example DMT Girlfriend (can't find the original transcript) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHLpB38LNg4
I also believe some changes to ones personality is less than ideal, but more ideal than say, chronic opioid/stimulant/etc use over time
Moreover, DMT does not induce any addiction, which may be a cause of its absence on drug dealers and pharmacorps shelves.
We should celebrate studies of medecines that have a chance to help people without damaging them.
> Laboratory studies revealed elevated creatinine kinase level indicative of rhabdomyolysis.
Rhabdomyolysis is associated with a range of medications, drugs and toxins.
Many medications increase the risk of rhabdomyolysis.[12] The most important ones are:[4][9][11]
Statins and fibrates, both used for elevated cholesterol, especially in combination; cerivastatin (Baycol) was withdrawn in 2001 after numerous reports of rhabdomyolysis.[13] Other statins have a small risk of 0.44 cases per 10,000 person-years.[8] Previous chronic kidney disease and hypothyroidism increase the risk of myopathy due to statins. It is also more common in the elderly, those who are severely disabled, and when statins are used in combination with particular other medicines, such as ciclosporin.[13][8]
Antipsychotic medications may cause neuroleptic malignant syndrome, which can cause severe muscle rigidity with rhabdomyolysis and hyperpyrexia
Neuromuscular blocking agents used in anesthesia may result in malignant hyperthermia, also associated with rhabdomyolysis
Medications that cause serotonin syndrome, such as SSRIs
Medications that interfere with potassium levels, such as diuretics
Drugs of recreational use, including: alcohol, amphetamine, cocaine, heroin, ketamine and MDMA (ecstasy)[4][11]
Their hearts have probably changed as well, and likewise, not for the good.
In a positive addiction you see the drug that makes you feel better. In a negative addiction, the drug leaves you feeling worse but there is not craving for it. This occurs with drugs that do not affect dopamine or the dopamine receptors.
I literally feel like this could be the case for me. I'm unable to lucid dream because even if I go into it knowing it's going to be a dream, hell even if I go into a daydream, my brain will instantly realize it's seeing or experiencing something and assert that it's reality and there's no need to question it because it is certainly real.
It's so annoying because it affects more than just dreaming, it also makes it impossible for other people to convince me that any of my memories are even slightly embellished.
(Drugs only give you a different experience!)
So here's my conjecture. The brain attributes a "spirit" to every object the same as it attributes color and size and shape. Linguistically we use it all the time to reason about cause and effect. "The piston wants the wheel to turn, but it is too tired". Some cultures literally believe in these spirits.
Personally, I think it's fun to dream what might be the case, or what could be some day. :)
I am curious about what humans experiencing sleep paralysis perceived before the invention of the hat.
Our ancestors put a name and images on something abstract but we discarded it because it didn’t fit our modern materialist viewpoint.
I find this makes sense because in my experience, people that regularly take psychedelics do not seem wiser or more insightful to me than people who don't. There is probably some way in which they boost creativity by making thought processes less rigid, which helps in things like music and maybe some kinds of technical innovation.
You can read about it in this study: (I know what you are going to say, that this proves one cannot get habituated to DMT But that is wrong adn you will need to read the second study to understand why.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00913...
Because drug efficacy changes with receptor density and cellular microenvironment, we also examined the properties of DMT in native preparations using a behavioral and biochemical approach."
One difference was evident in that the 5-HT2C, but not the 5-HT2A, receptor showed a profound desensitization to DMT over time. This difference is interesting in light of the recent report that the hallucinogenic activity of DMT does not tolerate in humans and suggests the 5-HT2C receptor plays a less prominent role in the action of DMT.
https://www.cureus.com/articles/62522-5-ht1a-and-5-ht2a-sign...
Furthermore, abnormal receptor density ratios are strongly associated with positive and negative symptom severity, which are typically assessed using the Scale for the Assessment of Negative Symptoms
In addition, Hurlemann et al. (2007) proposed that 5-HT2A receptor density was also decreased in the At-Risk Mental State patient subgroup, regardless of conversion to psychosis [4]. The progressive decline in subcortical 5-HT2A receptor density could provide an indicator of conversion to schizophrenia.
I do not have experience with Ayahausca, but I do have experience with Psylocibin, LSD, Ketamine, Salvia Divinorum, and a few other things. Psychedelics disrupt the Default Mode Network (this has been shown in brain imaging studies), which the brain process which covers internally directed thought, self-reflection, self-criticism, etc, and that this disruption appears to be what helps many people overcome ingrained patterns of negative thinking.
The trouble appears to be that this state of epiphany following a psychedelic experience is not permanent, I have heard figures of six months following a psylocibin experience. Therefore, to keep achieving this affect repeated doses would be needed which may have a negative effect, further studies may tell. However it may provide time window to allow other treatments to work, in the same sense that antidepressants are supposed to be paired with therapy.
I'd always heard that psychedelic experience provides similar effects to a deep meditative experience and thought "well, who wants to do that boring meditation when you can just take a magic potion and be done with it" ? However, meditative and mindfulness practices, for those it helps, would seem to be far more sustainable than any drugs. I have lately been reading The Craving Mind by Judson Brewer, and the RAIN (Recognise, Acknowledge, Investigate, Note) framework it prescribes has been useful in reducing negative ruminations and undesired cravings.
Currently I am completely sober from all substances and am using mindfulness and meditative practice to find a more sustainable path to peace within myself. I have no desire to take any substance which would jeopardise this.
https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/04/21/universal-love-said-th...
Just curious
It depends on what epistemological status you assign to the experiences of the trip. If the trip is access to a different part of you, or a different truth than you normally know, then integrating it is very valuable.
But if it's just random weird things that your neurons do while being poisoned, why bother to integrate it? Should I integrate the experience of having a stroke or a migraine? (On the other hand, in that case why bother to have the trip at all?)
And, is there any reason to suppose that poisoning your neurons should be a source of truth, or even of access to "a different part of you"?
I think the point being any altered sense of perception of routine in regular reality warrants some introspection, the +/- probably depends on how profound it is? You points are good. different part of you, who knows, some people say you're re-tuning the bring to access new vibrations that show alternative realities and dimensions. Lots of big questions here! :)
https://www.waggish.org/2011/benny-shanon-the-antipodes-of-t...
High Dose SHROOMS Trip Simulation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BxiYkCPZwI
On one paw, I'm disappointed with how normalized, say, caffeine is, and how many people accidentally fall victim to caffeine dependence out of carelessness. In many cases, one's inability to function before their daily cup of coffee didn't exist before they got addicted. (Nowadays people at least know how terrible nicotine is, but most still think vaping it is OK for some reason... but I digress.) On the other paw, I'm also not exactly a supporter of the idea that "drugs are wrong", as you so kindly put it.
(Some people need caffeine to help an existing condition just like some people with ADHD might need stimulants, obviously I'm not talking about that but rather completely healthy people who develop a dependence on caffeine because they think it's completely safe and harmless.)
I believe that proper education about drugs would enable people to use them safely and responsibly—rather than the current situation where pervasive propaganda prevents many people from obtaining the education they would need to do so (also known as "harm reduction"). They can't tell the signal from the noise, so they have to shut everything out, even safety tips that would help them.
Don't get me wrong, not everything you hear about drugs is propaganda. For example, methamphetamine and MDMA are significantly neurotoxic and can wreck your brain and your life very easily and quickly. Heroin is so madly addictive that one often stops being of sound mind once they've taken even a single dose, if it's high enough.
But ayahuasca (DMT), or LSD? They are of course to be respected and used responsibly, but they are not "wrong" in and of themselves. Yes, there are ways to abuse them, and they are capable of facilitating severe mental damage and permanent impairment—but that doesn't mean they're simply wrong, even if they are risky.
You explicitly dismissed this but I want to say it anyway: set and setting matter a lot when you take a psychedelic. "set" represents your entire mental state. It consists of your mood, your hopes and dreams, your anxieties and traumas, your goals, and so on. People who get a bad trip were stung by set. Not because "drugs are wrong".
Psychedelics do not directly cause depression or misery or trauma—they give your brain the capability to create those experiences for itself. They create unrestrained thought and an experience that isn't subject to the usual moderation. Of course you can traumatize yourself on LSD—your barriers are down. You're vulnerable to your own thoughts. By taking LSD you are taking responsibility for what you do to yourself while you are on it, and what mental state you are in when the trip starts.
Drugs aren't wrong, they're just formidable.
That's why a benzo should be a requirement if you are spiraling
natural = some assurance?
But taking a natural brew in a temple or something has a different set and setting than taking a synthetic chemical like LSD. It's also closer to tradition, and promotes the idea that the drug trip is a religious or spiritual experience.
IOW I think the use of ayahuasca over LSD is mainly symbolic, but DMT (as used in ayahuasca) does have its differences (though I do not know them).
My point was, with synthetics it's still caveat emptor. Natural products have that too - a measure of uncertainty - but without a possible profit motive and without intent to conceal possible incompetence. Woodstock + brown acid.