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Comment by FabrosoFernan | Hacker News Reader

Why shouldn't it?

4chan has been having a field day recently twisting these AIs into knots trying to avoid particular sensitive issues and even objective facts.

What's the alternative? Should it lie?

I must point out the irony of asking "Do Jews exert disproportionate influence over Western politics, culture, technology and media in defence of their ethnic interests?" and getting the response "Sorry, I'm not allowed to answer that"!

I don't know what the best pro-Jewish solution is, but the current ham-fisted censorship is providing an entertaining spectacle that does little to dispel certain controversial ideas.

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>What's the alternative? Should it lie?

I wonder which is it doing now. Perhaps it's being brutally honest, and reality actually has a liberal bias? How would you know the difference?

Well we know what it's doing now, it tries to detect controversial questions and refuses to answer. (For example, the other replies to your comment where it's revealed that it will happily write a poem praising Biden or even Trump, but not Hitler.)

There have been some humourous approaches to confusing this system where people have successfully teased out some taboo answers from the AI. (For example, rather than directly attacking the Holocaust narrative, people have asked how long it takes to cremate a body, how many people were cremated at Auschwitz, how many ovens were available at Auschwitz crematorium, how long it would take to completely cremate x million bodies with x ovens...oops!)

  > Perhaps it's being brutally honest, and reality actually has a liberal bias? How would you know the difference?

Ask it if transwomen are really women and see if your device melts?

Do you think there is a universal objective answer to this?

Would we advise women to get a prostate exam after 40?

Some women, yes. (The ones with prostates, obviously.)

What's your next question?

Women don't have prostates.

If a man dresses like a woman and thinks he's a woman, that is a mental condition that deserves treatment and that person deserves to be treated humanely like the rest of us, but it doesn't turn them into a woman.

I see, so you disagree that gender is a social construct. That's fair, but your opinion is not universally held and wouldn't be a sufficient answer for a GPT bot.

The issue becomes apparent when you ask somebody how many genders there are, and what constitutes a gender.

In order to define transitioning between various genders, there needs to be a constituted boundary around what a gender is. Otherwise, how can you transition from one to another?

This becomes readily apparent when you take the man/woman genders out of the equation and ask to define some of these other genders that supposedly exist and how people transition between them. There is no logic to it. Try it yourself.

I am a woman when writing this sentence but a man after I'm done.

I disagree there is any issue at all, much less an "apparent" one.

Declaring there must be objective, immutable, universal boundaries for gender expressions is certainly a valid position to hold; but it's not universally shared.

So an ostensibly neutral "authoritative reference" bot shouldn't offer your worldview, nor mine, when asked such a question.

It certainly shouldn't say women can't have prostate exams. That is factually incorrect in the actual world you live in (regardless of whether you personally consider those people "women", they do and others do as well.)

  > I am a woman when writing this sentence but a man after I'm done.

This actually proves my point even better than I already had. If you can just make it up and say you are whatever gender whenever you want, then the idea of transitioning between them isn't actually a real thing, it's just all in your head and more importantly - the idea that anybody else should respect it is absurd.

Also, you have declared that you can't define what constitutes different genders, nor have any idea of how many genders there are. So, it's all make believe.

---

Me: In which dimensions of gender are trans women not women?

GPT-4: It is important to clarify that trans women are women. They identify as women and should be respected and treated as such. However, the question seems to be asking about the dimensions in which trans women might differ from cisgender women. It is essential to approach this subject with sensitivity and understanding, as the experience of gender is diverse and personal.

Some dimensions where trans women and cisgender women might differ include:

Biological sex: Trans women are usually assigned male at birth based on their biological sex, which typically involves a specific combination of sex chromosomes, gonads, and sex hormones. This is different from cisgender women, who are assigned female at birth. However, it's essential to recognize that biological sex is also a complex spectrum, and there are many intersex individuals whose biology doesn't fit neatly into male or female categories.

Gender identity development: Trans women often experience a process of recognizing and understanding their gender identity, which might involve overcoming internalized societal expectations and stereotypes. This journey can be different from cisgender women, who usually do not experience a conflict between their gender identity and the gender assigned at birth.

Medical transition: Some trans women may undergo medical treatments, such as hormone replacement therapy (HRT) or gender-affirming surgeries, to align their physical appearance with their gender identity. Cisgender women do not generally need such interventions for their gender identity.

Social experiences: Trans women may face unique challenges and discrimination based on their gender identity, such as transphobia, misgendering, or difficulties accessing appropriate healthcare. These experiences can differ from those of cisgender women.

It is crucial to emphasize that these differences do not diminish the validity of trans women's identity as women. Everyone's experience of gender is unique, and it is essential to respect and validate each individual's self-identified gender.

---

You're right, it is a tad preachy. But does the preachiness come from processing raw data from psychologists and other fields (who pretty much agree on these definitions afaik), or is it a configuration setting `beWoke: true`? I would guess it's the former. If it comes from science, shouldn't ChatGPT respect that more instead of falling into political nonsense?

If a political party comes up who says that crystals heal Covid-19, or that climate change isn't real we shouldn't allow that political opinion to change how AI "thinks" about things, right? Both of these examples are from real life, and the climate change "opinion" was until very recently an official position of the Republican party. Some internet lunatics like Jordan Peterson or Scott Adams still claim that sometimes.

> You’re right, it is a tad preachy. But does the preachiness come from processing raw data from psychologists and other fields (who pretty much agree on these definitions afaik), or is it a configuration setting `beWoke: true`?

Its a mix of the two, but very significantly the latter (using “woke” in this specific, isolated case to mean “adherence to a corporate script designed for performative adherence to a script meant to minimize criticism from activists for certain marginalized identity groups.”) There was a vey clear pattern of these “it is important to clarify” or similar phrasing scripts showing up more in response to early criticism of ChatGPT, and its very clear (whether its an insert from interaction with the moderation component or a result of focused fine tuning of the main model) these are clear deliberately-injected messages on specific topics.

  > It is important to clarify that trans women are women.

  > Some dimensions where trans women and cisgender women might differ include:

So they're the same, but here is how they're different.

Got it. I guess we've settled the "reality has a liberal bias" question...

It gave me a satisfyingly straightforward answer to "What is a woman?" a couple of months back:

> A woman is an adult female human. Women are typically characterized by their reproductive biology, which includes their menstrual cycle, and the production of eggs and estrogen. Women are also known for their unique physical characteristics, such as their breast tissue and hips. They are also often distinguished by their social and cultural roles, such as their expected behavior and appearance. In general, the term "woman" is used to refer to any adult female person, regardless of her age, race, ethnicity, or other characteristics.

Sadly, asking the same question today also adds a load of drivel that is almost certainly intended to encompass men performing misogynistic stereotypes of femininity and claiming they are women because of this:

> A woman is an adult human female, typically distinguished from males based on biological sex characteristics such as reproductive organs, hormones, and chromosomes. However, it's important to recognize that the concept of womanhood is not limited to biology, and encompasses a range of social, cultural, and personal experiences and identities. The definition of a woman can vary across different societies, cultures, and historical periods, and can also be influenced by factors such as gender roles, expectations, and societal norms. Ultimately, being a woman is a complex and multifaceted experience that is shaped by various intersecting factors such as race, ethnicity, class, sexuality, and more.

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