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Comment by rhaway84773 | Hacker News Reader

I think there are several reasons:

1. Historically being fat was considered a sign of good health. Of course, this was during times of massive food scarcity and the definition of fat was probably very different from what we consider fat today.

2. Massive amounts of money involved in telling people to eat/drink more, and then spend more money in gyms and taking pills to lose that weight. As opposed to just eating less and then living normal healthy active lives. There’s not much money in the latter.

3. People wanting to stop fat-shaming (which is also unequivocally bad…fat shaming only makes it harder for people to lose weight), trying to convince other people that someone being fat does not make them bad, quickly morphing into being fat is good.

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>1. Historically being fat was considered a sign of good health. Of course, this was during times of massive food scarcity and the definition of fat was probably very different from what we consider fat today.

I'm surprised you put that in and not:

4. motivated reasoning. People want reasons to justify their current lifestyle and not having to put in hard work to change it.

For point #1, most western cultures already idealize thinness. Therefore that's not really a factor unless you're from a culture that idealizes being fat.

> 1. Historically being fat was considered a sign of good health. Of course, this was during times of massive food scarcity and the definition of fat was probably very different from what we consider fat today.

Wasn't it more a sign of being wealthy and successful? Like if you were fat, it meant you could afford to spend a lot of money/effort on getting food and didn't need to do difficult work outside for 8+ hours a day?

Not sure people were calling it healthy, so much as treating it like a status symbol (because it kinda was).

There was a professor at my university who initiated to America from India when he was around 20 years old, and ended up accomplishing some great things in his field. People often asked him why he moved to America, expecting some story about believing in oneself, following your dreams, etc.

He always responded: "I just wanted to move to a place where the poor people were fat."

Not having trouble getting food is, de facto, healthy if having trouble getting food is most people's baseline. You're drawing the distinction in a way that only makes sense from a modern perspective.

That last one is a tricky, people shouldn't be bullied..it's demotivational.

I think it's better to stick to that, and just drop the term 'fat-shaming'.

I think changing the name doesn't take away the hate at the core here. People would be as fine with "fat-bullying" as they are with "fat-shaming", they see it as somewhere between "their social right" and "actually helping the person".

It is the same as changing "retard" to "mentally challenged" or "handicapped" to "disabled"... the next term just becomes equally toxic because you haven't changed the actual stigma, just the word used to express it.

The stigma is fine. It's the bullying that's a problem.

But recent efforts have been focused on blurring the lines here.

This is basically "heritage not hate" but for a socially-acceptable target. You're saying racist opinions and discourse are fine as long as you don't act racist.

The stigma causes the hate, they're effectively the same thing (I used them interchangeably) and leads directly to adverse actions against those individuals.

And as I said above - the argument generally shifts at that point to "it's good for them to be attacked, maybe it'll motivate them". Because again, it's just a socially-acceptable vector for hate. We've gradually run out of other forms like racism and sexism, for a while it was homophobia (and the argument was that was a choice too, so it was fine to attack), but we'll always have fat people.

Stop attacking, hating, "stigmatizing", whatever you want to call it, based on traits. It's all "isms" and 50 years ago it is the same argument used to defend racism. Just be civil and treat people like human beings, it's not that complicated.

I think the 3rd point is different for each person. Some people do like "tough love" - being told that they are in a bad place and need to improve will motivate them.

Others, on the other hand, will be pushed further back into the hole by such talk. This is very individual.

I'm interested in 3. Is there any research or data about that?

I do not encourage fat shaming at all, but I can also imagine that in some cases shame may be a powerful motivator for some people. Is there hard data showing that it actually makes it harder?

Just some anecdata here, but I was toeing the line between overweight and obese about a year ago. I read David Goggins book Can't Hurt Me, and one of the things he talked about was having a note in the mirror reminding you of your goals (real novel concept ikr?). Anyways, the way he phrased it was something like, "If you're fat and don't want to be, right down the raw truth on that note and read it every morning, then write down how you'll fix it". I wrote something along those lines down, and read it every morning. The guilt and shame I felt from allowing myself to slip up this bad definitely helped motivate me.

1 year later, and I'm down 35 pounds with another 10-20 to go. I feel great! Walking doesn't hurt anymore, doing physical stuff is fun again, and I have more energy than I used to. All that to say, the guilt and shame definitely helped motivate me, but YMMV :)

Constant reminders are great, just make sure to put some positive ones up, too.

On a related note, find yourself in a woman’s house and notice the inspirational text artwork. “Eat, Love, Pray”, “Worrying works because it never happens”, etc. These little signs are powerful.

Congrats. As someone pointed out in another replies I can totally see how the guilt, and not the shame, may be the strongest motivator.

Good going mate.

Anecdotally, I made a comment to a non-obese 20 something year old about how it is unhealthy to be obese. They went absolutely ballistic saying that I was fat-shaming and that you can’t say obesity is unhealthy.

Many fat shamers use t Health as an excuse to allow themselves to treat fat people like shit.

Unfortunately getting into that argument is a minefield.

Just let them be adults and manager their life as they please. At one point they might becone fed up with life as a fat person and they'll make the effort.

And it they don't, well, there are people who smoke from teenage years all the way to the grave

But, either eay, people dont humiliate smokers the way they do with fat people

> But, either eay, people dont humiliate smokers the way they do with fat people

No, we just tax the shit out of tobacco, exclude them from certain insurance plans, blame and shame them about smoking indoors or inside vehicles, and tell smokers to go huddle outside and off to the side, away from doors, windows, and air intakes, while they do the thing we don't like.

Or were you thinking of air travel, where the difference between a smoker and a non-smoker is either negligible (because they aren't currently smoking), or completely excludes the smoker from the activity (because 16 hours in a plane is too long without a cigarette for them).

Humiliate them? Not often. But we sure as hell told them to take it someplace else; anyplace else, just not near the rest of us.

The analogy breaks down. I don't shame anyone for smoking. But if you want me to breathe your smoke, that's another story.

Consider that some cases of overeating are driven by the dopamine bump food provides. Perhaps you are depressed, or bored, or insecure.

If you are shamed for your body, you feel even worse; you may then eat even more to feel better.

Shame implies a personal failing, which readily translates into feelings of guilt and helplessness.

It is not at all a constructive approach.

The "healthy obesity" thing is the pendulum flying to the opposite end of the spectrum: unconditional support turned into acceptance and promotion of what we know to not be true.

Alternatively:

"Shame implies a personal failing, which readily translates into recognizing and correcting those personal failings."

In the 20th century, Americans fat shamed each other and were less fat. Today in Asia, people still fat shame each other and they're a lot less fat than Americans.

What I’ve always heard is that if it’s something someone can’t fix in 5 minutes they probably already know and you telling them isn’t helping

Now it’s a different story if you’re willing to work with them daily to help them lose weight or something similar. But just telling your friend “he your fat, it’s bad for you fix it” will only hurt

Here's a small list of studies: https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/fat-shaming-makes-thing... .

The short of it is that it increases stress, increases depression, eating disorders, and risk of suicide.

As for shame and its ironic effects, you can look to Brene Brown's research and that of other shame researchers.

I think shame can be powerful for many people, but it has negative side-effects that don't seem to be necessary. Obesity also has large genetic and environmental components[1], as well. Shame can make it hard for people to seek help, since the shame can be internalized to the degree that they don't feel like their life is worth fixing.

[1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/28/opinion/ezra-klein-podcas...

Not just that - the fear of being told their health issues are due to their weight (regardless of whether that's true) and the consequent feelings of shame can discourage many people from seeking medical help of any sort, often until it's too late. But it would be just as irresponsible for a medical professional to tell a patient their obesity is healthy as it is to immediately attribute whatever medical complaint they might have to excess weight (which, from what I've heard, still happens a lot).

Shame is a powerful demotivator. Guilt is a good motivator.

No. Both suck.

No, they are good and useful.

Section 5.3 of this report covers it a bit: https://www.who.int/europe/publications/i/item/9789289057738

A bit brief though, probably need to check the cited material. The overall theme of the report as awhile though is that motivation issues are less of a factor than generally believed.

> Is there any research or data about that?

Well, we’re probably 70+ years into a National experiment with it, and weights are only going up.

What is the control group for your proposed experiment and how can I join it?

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