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Comment by jasonkester | Hacker News Reader

Even casual users find typing faster than mousing.

Casual Linux users, perhaps? I can't imagine anybody who's ever watched a casual computer user use a computer saying anything like the above quote.

Most people have the mouse in their hand the entire time, and usually don't have their other hand anywhere near the keyboard. Typing involves not only clicking into a box and dropping the mouse, but actually leaning the entire body forward in order to reach the keyboard.

Even I, computer programmer by trade, spend the majority of my life in "first person shooter mode" rather than "typing mode" because most of a web dev's life is debugging things that happen in the browser (a mousish place), and pretty much anything you need to do along the code-analysis line can be done with a combination of pointing and left-handing.

If you make me drop my mouse every time I need to interact with an application on your OS, I don't think I'll use your OS.

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> casual computer user

You mean casual long-term windows/mac user, I suspect.

A user who's been taught by the OS not to use the keyboard much won't use the keyboard much - if they have to click into a box to do it in general, that's going to encourage it.

Ubuntu is attempting to make things better, not just copy the other desktop OSen. Maybe it'll work, maybe it won't. But the fact it's not what you immediately expect currently doesn't guarantee it to fail.

Do they have casual computer users of any other variety?

No, but they are not going to get casual users of other varieties by sitting around copying what's already out there. I'm reserving judgment on HUD for now, but I have a great deal of respect for an OS willing to push the boundary.

Of course, I really want Ubuntu to get into the touch space for that reason as well, because that's where casual users seem to be going.

How on earth are they going to get into the touch space?

It's already fragmented enough, not to mention that most tablets/phones are locked down and will prevent people installing an alternative OS anyway.

The only way would be to produce their own hardware since they won't make any money licensing their OS.

If they're as good at hardware design as they are at software.. I think I'll pass.

There are actually plenty (for some value of plenty :)) casual Ubuntu users. Most of them have had Ubunutu set-up by somebody competent, but once they have it, they can use it as casually as they like. The only reason they even need somebody to install it is that they don't realize it's an alternative.

"were"

there "were" plenty of casual ubuntu users. soon there will be plenty of casual mint users.

The amount of converters depends on how many people are telling the casual Ubuntu users what they want instead of letting them decide.

Having to switch back and forth between keyboard mode and mouse mode by moving your hand away from the keyboard is horrendous. Consider using a keyboard with a built in mouse pointer like this one:

http://reviews.cnet.com/keyboards/ibm-usb-travel-keyboard/17...

Once you become proficient with the index finder mousing (it doesn't take long) you'll never have to remove your hands from the keyboard and may even find yourself typing and mousing at the same time on occasion. I really don't see how these aren't more popular. I just wish I could find a wireless one for my home theatre setup.

moving your hand away from the keyboard is horrendous

... for you.

Every laptop keyboard in the world has a built-in pointer, and yet there's still plenty of demand for mice. So yes, while I understand that you and many people like you keep your hands on the keyboard 24/7 and are therefore several orders of magnitude more productive than the rest of us, you should probably realize that you're a very small minority of the general population.

Actually, some of the most popular laptops (eg: every macbook ever sold and every laptop on display at my local best-buy) do not have this type of built-in pointer. Trackpads are very common. Index finger pointing sticks are not. And they are much more effective than trackpads.

Given the choice between keyboard with trackpad vs keyboard and mouse, I too would choose keyboard and mouse. I believe that I'm in a small minority of the general population simply because most people haven't been exposed to the less common alternative.

Of course I may be wrong, and perhaps most people have tried this type of keyboard and just don't like it. In any case, it's not about productivity for me. It's about annoyance reduction, comfort, and convenience.

I always found the small stick on IBM laptops utterly imprecise to the point of being unusable. OTOH I find that current Mac trackpads are as good as a mouse most of the time, even slightly better because of three and four fingers gestures.

Actually, one advantage of trackpads over the center-mounted pointers is that you can perform gestures using a trackpad. Two fingers to scroll, pinch to zoom, slide between desktops, etc. etc. You could use keyboard shortcuts for those, but when I'm Web browsing I rather enjoy using the scroll/zoom gestures on my Macbook's trackpad.

> Trackpads are very common. Index finger pointing sticks are not. And they are much more effective than trackpads.

Meh. Some people love them. Some people hate them. Most people who have both the nub and a trackpad seem to use the trackpad. I personally find that modern trackpads are far more usable, even ignoring the benefits of multi-touch and the improvements of the new clickpads.

HCI is moving toward direct interaction. The nub is the opposite direction. Touching the screen can provide something very close direct interaction. A trackpad or mouse adds a later of abstraction, as your motions are not directly on the screen, but instead translated to the screen. The mouse cursor becomes a proxy for your finger. The nub adds yet another layer of indirection, as your actions are reduced to prodding a tiny joystick. No longer is the mouse cursor a proxy for your finger, because it does not move with your finger.

Index finger pointing sticks are not. And they are much more effective than trackpads.

You wouldn't mouse with a fullsize joystick on a desktop, because its no good, it's equally no good on a laptop.

I want to move the cursor a distance based on the distance I move, not based on the duration I move - it's comparable in wrongness to steering a racing car game with the arrow keys.

Rant aside, why do you say they are more effective, anyway?

I want to move the cursor a distance based on the distance I move, not based on the duration I move - it's comparable in wrongness to steering a racing car game with the arrow keys.

It depends on the total amount of pressure, not time... Just as using a mouse or a trackpad depends on the distance and not the time you move your finger. Exactly the same thing.

The difference, in practice, is just that you can't put as much force (comfortably) as you can move your finger/mouse with speed. That's why I consider the index finger pointing stick a complement to a real mouse. The same goes for the trackpad where you must have a low sensitivity to get any precision at all, or you could use acceleration but that's just awful (now the distance you move your finger have nothing to do with how long the cursor will move, now you also have to take time into consideration).

And as a complement the index finger pointing stick is vastly superior to the trackpad since you don't have to move your hands at all to switch between them. And for precision work or stuff that require "performance" a real mouse is the way to go anyway.

They sell a new version of that keyboard. Typing on it right now. It has the updated "big delete key" keyboard and no trackpad. Pretty awesome.

http://shop.lenovo.com/us/itemdetails/55Y9003/38/C39222A11DE...

If it's anything like what it seems, you shouldn't need to type more than a few characters. Easily done with one hand, then you can hit enter or click the option.

Say you type "d". It brings up "delete", "documents", and "return to desktop" (with the fuzzing). Type one more character and you get the one you want, or click it. That's how it works in Windows 7, and it might be the best thing Microsoft has ever done.

That's how it sometimes works in Windows. But when I type vnc and there are no results, then vncviewer.ex and no results, then vncviewer.exe and one result with icon, and that's repeatable, I'm less impressed.

When I first had to use Windows 7 and used the new "Start" Button (or whatever they call it nowadays) I actually thought this could be a real step forward. I have been using nothing else but dmenu in my work environments and it is a pleasure. This is really just a case where bad implementation ruins the whole experience. Apparently it wasn't judged worth the effort and maybe usage-statistics show that most of their users never use that functionality. It's a loss anyhow.

The only time I've experienced this is on a file that was downloaded but not installed. Installed applications pop up pretty quick. Not sure if Windows catalogs uninstalled files for their search.

Granted, on my Windows XP laptop at work, I use the run command for almost everything. Win then R then "cmd", "notepad", "firefox". It works pretty well for what I want it to do.

As a programmer you should really try unhooking your mouse for 2 weeks straight then report back your findings. If you see the potential after that, then give something like HUD a try. I don't mean to be rude or antagonistic, but first person shooter mode sucks.

I think HUD looks pretty kick ass. I barely ever use the touchpad on my macbook and I'll never go back to using a mouse. It's like a context switch. Spotlight is great, but also having contextual search within the application looks so much better.

I don't think this design is actually for keyboards, keyboards are just the intermediary step to voice, which casual computer users might well use more than even a mouse, if it works.

Oh, please, no.

I already hate the chimes and beeps and twiddles that echo around the office. The very last thing in the world I want is to have it filled with the previous sounds and "computer: open file january report"

And, personal preference aside, there is no way that I can speak the _commands_ as fast as I can type them. For long paragraphs of natural prose, voice recognition is okay; for specific things, not so much.

I don't think this is really about typing, this is about how do we make complex applications hands free?

Vast menus full of commands are pretty much a no go in mobile mouse-free computing and are what kill Windows apps on the tablet.

As for your specific comment -- typing doesn't involve clicking a box (windows or command key) and if your leaning your entire body forward to reach the keyboard your desktop is set up wrong.

As for web development, try a touchpad. Users aren't posting to facebook, ordering things online, and navigating Google all day with only a mouse.

I think you can make an argument both ways. Laptop users typically have their hands over the keyboards, and aren't laptops now the majority of PC sales?

Even when I use a laptop my hands are positioned off the keyboard. In fact, I find the transition from the Mousepad to the Keyboard more disruptive than on a desktop because you usually have ot move your non-mouse hand off the keyboard to make room for movement.

And, Laptops are great for consumption. If I'm doing some serious creation I get the hell off my laptop and go up to my office at home and work on my desktop.

They find it faster, however it usually is slower. However people don't notice type time, but they notice mouse time.

Ideally, you would offer both interfaces, and let the person use what they use.

And last I checked, they have no plans of (for 12.04, which is an LTS and therefore will be supported for 5 years) removing the traditional menu - the HUD is simply "use it if you want to".

If you're referring to the study that I think you're referring to, that result only applies to people who are just learning to do a task, not experienced users.

Yes, same study I believe

The differential was actually "commonly used tasks" and "more rarely used tasks" (which includes new users). The study did not define how to tell which task was which very well.

So yes, cutting a line of text, faster via the keyboard, but capitalizing every first word? Very likely, the mouse has the edge.

Aha: Web developers have to use the mouse all the time. Interesting. Also thanks: Everytime I read something like this, it reminds me to never touch something like web development ever.

That's really not contributing to the discussion at all.

How about the WEB developers tart respecting tab order and such devices in their applications?

Web dev here, concur 100% with the gp. Everytime I read something like this, I'm reminded to ignore the grunts of emacs neckbeards and not to touch the keyboards they're still wanking over.

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