I splurged for the fanciest dishwasher and it was worth it
bonappetit.com
bonappetit.com
My first thought when I saw the headline was "oh cool a start-up that disrupts dishwashing, I wonder what fancy overpowered tech they throw at the problem".
And then it turns out to be a Miele, one of the common go-to brands for household appliances in Germany.
Fun fact: Miele is actually one of the few companies that has technicians that carry a ton of spare parts in their vans, so when you got an issue you just call a number, get an appointment, and then somebody comes by your house and will probably get everything working again in an hour or two. They also carry custom made suitcases with build-in Thinkpads for diagnostics and a tiny desk for writing.
We bought a Miele dishwasher. We've been able to clear clogs ourselves following instructions. It actually cleans the dishes properly, and the door pops open to allow drying when the cycle completes.
Stuff made in China starts going on the fritz. If you get the expensive brands made in China, it means they last one or two years instead of 3 to 6 months. We have a higher-end American brand washing machine (not Miele). It's control panel is starting get squirrely. The machine is fine, but the electronics are starting to fail, and the repair cost for replacement boards is a significant percentage of the cost of the machine. Enough that we'll probably go with Miele when the board fails altogether.
If Miele makes a healthy margin, that's good in my book, because they make products that are worth the money. I'm tired of buying cheap disposable crap. I don't want to buy a toaster every year because they burn out every year. I refuse to go through the circus of buying a dishwasher or washer/drier every 5 years anymore.
We actively search for products that last, and that have good service. We actively avoid, as far as is possible, products made in China, because the quality, and verification of quality is no longer suitable. Buying stuff made in mainland China, even with an American or European brand-name means that it is cheap in the very short term, and costly in both dollars and time in the long run.
If a company can make a profit and not engage in the outsourcing idiocy we've seen in American brands, than they'll get my money, even at a premium.
Although dishwashers and clothes washers are a bit of an apples to oranges comparison, we have a LG washing machine and no one wants to work on it because of the scarcity of parts and poor likelihood of successfully repairing the issue. They recommended Whirlpool/Maytag for those reasons so while it might not be a great warranty and hassle to get warranty work done, they still have some major points for consideration.
https://spectrum.ieee.org/dishcraft-robotics-takes-over-dish...
[0]: https://www.sysgo.com/press-releases/miele-relies-on-elinos-...
It's also one of the many, many nice things on kitchen appliances that could totally be standard on every model if the ones without were just like $10 more expensive, but there's not even an option like that—you have to go move up way more than that in price to find them. Market segmentation in kitchen appliances is such a pain. Like if you just want some of the QOL-improving (but cheap to add) things without bumping up into another whole price bracket for a bunch of shit (or, often, just also-cheap styling options that they're charging a huge premium for) you don't want—you're shit out of luck, no such option, there's no slightly-more-expensive-than-the-cheapest-but-also-pleasantly-equipped model.
Bottom-tier are loud, don't actually clean dishes well, are ugly, and fail early. Top-tier are near-silent, clean dishes without a pre-rinse, have all sorts of intelligent drawers & racks to fit all your needs, and look great.
Some of them even have fancy features like popping the door open when done so the steam vents, etc.
Miele or Bosch seem to be the way to go, by far.
I am firmly a non-believer in luxury appliances and laugh at what people spend on fridges & ranges for vanity, but dishwashers are an absolute utilitarian efficient splurge.
ask ANY appliance repair person...they would howl at the comments here
they've told me that people who think Bosch or Miele are "good" are just remembering what they were like twenty years ago and today they are just as likely to fail as Kenmore
ask ANY appliance repair person, don't listen to HN on topics like this
You don't take your appliances with you when you move?
So the last thing you want a potential buyer worrying about is (1) looking at an empty appliance slot or (2) knowing the appliances are going and worrying if they can find something to perfectly fit in the same spot.
I mean also, because appliances usually stay.. it's kind of a problem for no one. Often times someone is selling a house to build a new one, they don't want to bring old appliances in a new build. Or if you are buying a pre-existing house, that will generally have the appliances etc.
Many appliances are effectively built-in to the kitchen (sometimes ovens, stoves), or may not fit in the new house.
It's agreed upon by the seller and buyer.
I know it's common in certain other countries to take your appliances with you, even for rentals. It makes moving so much harder, I've never understood it.
To me, a home not coming with a refrigerator or washing machine makes as much sense as it not coming with a toilet or shower.
your "builtin" fridge isn't really builtin, it just has cabinetry (plywood + veneer) on both side and the top in a standard dimension...its not like the home was built around the fridge
in most homes even the "builtin" cabinetry work is cheap garbage that can be replaced trivially, particularly in the case of white-finish just in most homes now
Only true in houses with high-end finishes.
Also, most appliance sellers include free disposal of old appliances, so the new homeowner does not have to worry about that.
Very often, they do take some, but large appliances are expensive to move making it a convenient time to trade up, and many homebuyers are first time homebuyers moving out of places where they don’t own the appliances (whether young people moving out from their parents or ex-renters moving from a place where the landlord owns some or all of the appliances), so appliances can be a big boon to selling a house.
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Dishwashers are probably the most-likely to stay with the house, followed by the range. Fridge may be included with the house, or specified as negotiable, but often isn't—probably the most-likely one for the seller to keep. Some higher-end models of various appliances (including refrigerators) may be built-in rather than freestanding, and/or to be styled to match the cabinets, and in those cases they almost always stay. Clothes washer and dryer are usually taken.
IME appliances are more likely to stay the higher the cost of the house (they're more likely to be kinda tied to the house, style-wise or physically; the owner is more likely to consider them not worth moving).
appliances are a commodity that represent a minor fraction of the sale price
no one plonks down $2 million dollars on a home to get $30k worth of appliances
no one moves into a poor school district to buy a Viking range
you can swap out all the appliances in a home in a few days
and the idea that these are an "investment"?? how many homes have you owned? no one is making a profit off of installing a dishwasher
and to edit a response...you just flipped properties in a seller's market, you would have made a profit regardless. wait until it is truly a buyer's market...you won't get a premium off easily-done renovations like swapping appliances
Recently I sold an apartment in a complex with 1200 units - so comps are widely available. The sale happened in a matter of hours with 6 way-over-ask offers, half of which were all cash. The closing price continues to be a high water mark for this unit / line in the complex.
There were other units on the market at the same time as us where the sale took weeks if not months and sold for drastically less. Some of them were recently renovated, but had builder grade finishes.
High end kitchen / bathroom renovations (aka appliances) are most certainly a major factor.
Prior to that I owned a very expensive dishwasher and it was awful. Within the 90 day return window it broke twice. A week before that window closed I returned it and bought the one I have now for a third of the price.
Someone I work with has a huge family. Something like eight or more kids. If I need recommendations on appliances I go to him because he's basically running dishwashers and laundry machines 12 hours a day. His advice to me for dishwashers: buy the cheapest one you can find. When it breaks, fixing it yourself usually costs under $100, and if it doesn't, get the same model and keep the functional parts of the old one (motors, pumps, control boards, inner rack parts, etc) as spares.
It's been 5 years and I've yet to have any issues with the cheap no-frills one.
The expensive one that broke twice within 90 days was a KitchenAid that cost a bit less than $2000. I don't recall the model number. It had a stainless steel tub, three racks, interior LED lighting, fans to blow heated air to dry dishes, and all sorts of other fancy features, that, in hindsight, don't help clean dishes in the slightest.
The first break: half way through a wash cycle I smelled burning plastic in the kitchen. It seemed like it was strongest near the dishwasher, so I opened it up. As I did, the sound of the water and pumps stopped, allowing me to hear the sound of what would ultimately be the source of the smell: the fan that was meant to blow heated air during the drying cycle was grinding away at full speed and rubbing against its housing causing it to melt. I could only guess as to why it malfunctioned that way - it shouldn't have even been running until all of the wash cycles had completed. It got replaced a few days later with the same model.
The second break: I loaded it up, started the machine, and went to bed. When I woke up in the morning my entire kitchen was flooded with dirty dish water. This time, the plastic housing for the main pump had literally split in half. Not only did that allow water to just flow right onto my floor, but caused it to continue flooding my floor as it tried to fill the tub to the correct level. Since most of it was going on the floor, the float switch that signals when the tub is full never cut off the pump. Eventually I think the control board decided that was a problem and stopped the pump.
In hindsight, there was really no justification for buying the fancy one in the first place. Aside from all "amazing" features, the design and parts used to accomplish the actual cleaning are almost identical in every way. I felt like a real idiot for falling for the marketing.
Never again.
To be fair, I've little experience with Miele or Bosch dishwashers. I lived in England for about a year over 15 years ago and had a Miele there. I had to be diligent about keeping it clean, otherwise I'd end up with dishes that were even more disgusting than when I put them in, as it would very effectively deposit the contents of an uncleaned filter onto every surface before baking it to an enamel-like finish. Given how much people seem to love their Miele dishwashers I suspect my experience with them wasn't typical.
Bosch calls it AquaStop, it's a plastic tray underneath the entire mechanical assembly. If there is a leak in the system water will accumulate here first, saving your floors. A simple float switch puts the system into always-drain mode to try and purge the rest of the water as fast as it can.
That little thing alone saved my wood floors from being ruined on an overnight inlet valve leak. And the valve was a $25 part from Amazon, a 30 minute DIY fix. That's some great engineering.
6 gas burners including two special-function power-boilers (useful!), and two separate electric ovens. That means we can bake both the protein and the vegetable dish at the same time, while finishing other parts of the meal on the range (like rice or sauce) and cut down on the overall cooking time.
Instead of my wife or I spending an hour to 90 minutes of serial cooking, we can parallelize the cook time and spend 30 to 45 minutes. Worth it, especially since we're eating out less than we ever have, one of the positive changes to come out of the pandemic.
> Miele is a German brand of luxury appliances with a long-standing reputation for quality, sleek design, and precision-obsessed German engineering.
Is it? Here in Sweden I'd say it's like any other kitchen appliance brand. Seems like they're well with the marketing overseas...
Not quite...closer to Mee-le. There is no prominent A at the end. Never heard anyone German pronounce it that way. See also Miele Germany youtube:
So you’d wash your stuff, put them in the cabinet, and they’d dry in there with the excess water falling directly in the sink.
I haven’t used the system myself, but the people living in the house liked it.
So, I went with Kingsfors shelves system (similar [0]) instead of cabinets and one of the inserts is this drying rack [1]. Ends up serving kind of as a storage system too.
Really happy with it. I don't understand why people build cabinets around their shelves... you have to open doors to get at things and memorize where everything is at, which is really not optimal.
[0] https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/kungsfors-wall-grid-with-storag...
[1] https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/kungsfors-dish-drainer-40371225...
Also, the brand itself is getting more 'blurry'. Miele refrigerators are actually made by Liebherr.
It was a real pleasure to work inside of. Far better than the AEG I repaired just before, that was all tightly integrated parts, and sharp edges just waiting to slice you up.
Like 5-6 years old Skoda Octavia (which are generally lasting so long YouTube nickname for them is "Good 'ol miles"). Until one evening you park it just fine in front of your house. And next morning power steering is no longer working.
Official VAG dealer/repair shop folks were like "Well you know it's electric stuff like light-bulb - one day it works, and next day you want to turn it on and it goes poof". Except this light bulb is angle sensor, power/hydraulics and T beam "sealed" all-in-one, and costs 1-2K Eur (which was ~10% of whole cars worth).
Well I don't know about Liebherr excavators and such machinery. But Liebherr refrigerators and freezers are amongst the best there are.
For all the good engineering put into them... I was at a loss at official way to stack two of them. Which is to buy official "add-on" that goes in between the washer (suggested to be at the bottom) and drier (suggested to be above). Attaching that add-on means drilling/screwing into top plate of the machine that's below, with kit including small (superglue size) silicone to seal those new holes.
The low end was <$800, these tend to be loud and not as effective.
Mid tier was <$1800, these were much quieter and washed well, but were a bit slower in terms of drying, and had a slightly clunkier user experience.
Finally here were the ones that are $1800+. They tended to dry more quickly and had smoother open/close/slide feel.
I ended up settling on ~$1300 Kitchenaid. It was quieter than my old (cheapo) dishwasher, washes well, and feels nice to use.
I recommend visiting a specialty appliance store and physically interacting with the dishwashers. The Bosch ones surprised me by how unpleasant they were to use for their price. The Kitchenaid felt closer to the $2500 ones.
We switched because Miele have a much longer warranty and sell direct from their website. We'll sell on the Bosch and hopefully someone with a bit of leak hunting time will get a nice dishwasher for cheap.
I've also learned never to wash anything with aluminum: the metal becomes pitted and loses its smooth surface.
10yr for hard users, 20yr for light users. Most people are presumably in between.
Edit: On second thought the lower bound is heavy use, the upper bound is probably "we can't guarantee all the rubber won't degrade and leak after this age".
As for our Miele washing machine - it is still going after almost 30 years! The main bearing is going so it is VERY LOUD and unfortunately not economic to fix. The Meile tech I asked said the failure mode would be leaking water so I said we'd wait for that. Still doing OK 2 years later :-)
This guy has been in his job for over 30 years. He uses a flip-phone, and has encouraged me to do my own repairs on multiple appliances over the years. He is not trigger-happy on replacement.
I expressed surprise that the machine needed to be replaced. It was barely 7 years old! I have already replaced the pump, and two washer assemblies. I asked him what the average life span is for a typical dishwasher these days.
His answer: 7 years.
A dishwasher is overkill for a 1-2 person household anyway.
The thought of hardened caramel being melted by my dishwasher, rinsed down the drain and then re-hardening on my pipes and dishwasher internals is enough to give me nightmares.