Hacker News Reader

Comment by junto | Hacker News Reader

The excellent public services are paid for through extremely high income taxes. I am happy to pay them though as the services and infrastructure provided are exemplary.

View on HN

> The excellent public services are paid for through extremely high income taxes. I am happy to pay them though as the services and infrastructure provided are exemplary.

Actually, the taxes per capita are about the same in the US and Germany. In fact, they're about the same in all of the major western countries. (Canada is actually a bit behind the US.) Average tax rates are lower in the US, but that's because the US has higher GDP per capita.

Therefore,if Germans get better services, it isn't from more tax money. Given that, it's absurd to think that US public services would improve given more money....

No - defence doesn't explain the difference.

As an American that has recently moved to Germany, I do know that I pay significantly more income tax in Germany. I also know that a greater percentage of the population here is employed compared to the US, and that Germany also has a higher percentage of their GDP come from taxes. I was surprised to read your claims - do you have any good sources for them?

I do agree with you that in the case of US public services, money is not the real issue.

http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2010/03/taxes-per-person.html

For another interesting bit (namely, what country has the most progressive tax system), see http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2011/03/what-nation-has-most-... and http://www.themoneyillusion.com/?p=4626 .

Short version - revenues aren't rates and both spending and gdp matter. (And, some assets aren't taxed - a huge fraction of Warren Buffet's fortune will never be taxed and none of his "I think rich people should pay more" proposals will change that. He's pushing taxes that other people will pay, often folks who he's trying to buy from.)

Yes. The Economist is also heavily advocating closing those `loopholes' instead of increasing the marginal rate. Today, only people with incompetent tax lawyers pay the highest marginal rates.

Are the public services so great? If you are unemployed, Harz IV, provides barely enough money to live a decent life (especially compared to other Western-European countries). Healthcare often distinguishes people who have private insurance (only accessible to public officers, self-employed, and employees earning more than 50,000 Euro) or public insurance. Germany also doesn't have a minimum wage.

Yes, when compared with US/UK, they are quite good. You have guaranteed access to decent and affordable socialized medical care. My sister has Multiple sclerosis, treatment is very expansive. The treatment is very expansive, the medicine alone costs a few thousand euros each month, she has to go into a MRI a few times a year, and she still doesn't have to pay more for her insurance than anyone else. If she would lose her job, insurance would be taken over by other public services.

Basic unemployment benefits are quite low, but still enough keep you warm, fed and clothed. In fact, you get paid more than I had while studying. You are not forced to liquidate property that doesn't exceed reasonable limits. Loosing your job doesn't bring you on the edge of being homeless.

Try living on the uk JSA (£67.50 a week) if you think that German unemployment benefits are low.

That is asuming your employer has been paying its NI properly my previous one was not and I got nothing.

If you are unemployed, Harz IV, provides barely enough money to live a decent life (especially compared to other Western-European countries).

As someone in one of those other Western-European countries, I can only say this is a good thing. If unemployment benefits are so high that the cost of child care, transportation, etc dwarfs the extra income from a real job, you aren't going to work.

Harz IV was harsh, but it allowed the Germans to get their finances right, and they did so timely. Every other European country will face much more serious cuts or go bankrupt. (Or pray to the Germans to pay for their excessive lifestyle, which is what's happening now)

Hartz IV is not unemployment benefits, it is social welfare (which you get once your unemployment insurance runs out). Unemployment insurance pays a percentage of your previous salary, but you also pay for it while being employed with a percentage of your salary...

How much is social insurance in other countries, if it exists at all (does it exist in the US?)?.

It has a bad reputation, but I always thought that Hartz IV is actually quite high. The numbers that are being floated in the press seem very low, but they always forget to mention that on top of that the state also pays the rent and health insurance for Hartz IV recipients. Where the system runs into trouble is when it sabotages the recipients through bureaucracy, for example some are being forced to move to a smaller flat even if it is more expensive. If they don't find something suitable in time or are simply unable to keep up with the bureaucracy, they might end up on the street. In that sense it is rather demeaning to people, but I think the amount of benefits received is probably OK.

Healthcare still works very well for publicly insured people, although I worry for the future and it has some annoyances. But for example I personally am scared of going private because I worry that physicians will do too much useless stuff to my body just to make money (I know enough stories of that kind). Sometimes more is less...

About Hartz IV and Bafoeg, etc: I hope the talks of moving to a guaranteed basic income lead somewhere. That would eliminate lots of bureaucracy.

isn't public transportation quite good in germany?

It is, though the intercity one is very expensive. Its usually cheaper to go by car for multiple people, despite the high gas prices.

When I tell my friends here in the US about Hartz IV, they can't believe it. The government pays your rent, your healthcare, and on top you get an allowance of $480 per month that you can spend however you'd like (note that groceries are much cheaper in Germany, too). Why would anyone ever want to work when he can retire immediately?

Don't forget that your defense needs are covered by the USA!

Why the downvote? While Germany has a fine military, its the US that traditionally protected Europe from the Soviets. Germany has the luxury of a 1.4% spending of their GDP, while the US hass 4.8%. That 3% frees up a lot of money for social services.

To not mention this in a comparison between the US and Germany is a glaring omission.

Don't forget that this was a demand of the allies

If you have a look at the military expenditure database you will see that Germany has the 7th largest military spendings in the world. Almost the same amount as Russia. I think that the German defense needs are covered enough even without the USA.

Much of the German military is a social welfare program (more so than the US); national service is traditional and keeps the unemployment figures down, but serves very little defense purpose.

No longer. They just all but abolished the draft.

The US uses most of the difference for it's imperialist agenda (as in waging offensive wars well outside its borders) and simply shoveling money to it's military-industrial complex, not defense.

Germany spends enough money to reasonably protect it's own borders, as do most of Germany's other allies. The US overspending on military is insane, and has fuck all to do with "defense".

(Apologies for the over-used terms like "imperialist" and "military-industrial complex", but they seem appropriate in this context.)

That's two decades ago. The soviets are history. They are gone. Now most US troops left Germany. The rest which are here are needed to keep the US empire (central command for europe, central command for africa, hospitals, logistics, ...). Even then Germany paid a lot of money for defense, we even paid the US for defense. Germany was heavily armed and was on the front line of the cold war conflict with huge military presences and installations.

The fall of the Berlin wall is now over twenty years ago. Germany has consequently reduced its military. The US has expanded it extensively in the last decade (two wars, etc.).

The number of US military installations is now mostly of FORMER installations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Army_inst...

Reply on news.ycombinator.com