Of course, if every store unionized, then they'd be forced to concede at some point that they still need to keep stores open in order to make money, but in the meantime it seems like it's an intimidation tactic and that should probably be illegal.
Of course, if every store unionized, then they'd be forced to concede at some point that they still need to keep stores open in order to make money, but in the meantime it seems like it's an intimidation tactic and that should probably be illegal.
0 - https://www.businessinsider.com/wal-mart-and-jade-helm-consp...
1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jade_Helm_15_conspiracy_theori...
2 - https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/business/2000/03/04/w...
3 - https://www.ufcw.org/press-releases/wal-mart-ordered-to-reco...
This court? Never happen. But this isn't clear-cut, and the same anti-retaliation impulse ought to apply, in my opinion. If a company shuts down a store in which a unionization effort is underway, and wants to claim it was for some other reason, the cost of the inevitable lawsuit ought to be included as a factor.
Network effects for me, but none for thee.
> Among the practices prohibited by the Taft–Hartley act are jurisdictional strikes, wildcat strikes, solidarity or political strikes, secondary boycotts, secondary and mass picketing, closed shops, and monetary donations by unions to federal political campaigns. The amendments also allowed states to enact right-to-work laws banning union shops. Enacted during the early stages of the Cold War, the law required union officers to sign non-communist affidavits with the government.
Seems like it should be at least partly unconstitutional on first amendment grounds, but I don't know if it's ever been challenged.
To be frank, it's a shining example of why every legislation needs a sunset date. One and done legislation is just a tyranny happening in slow motion without active efforts to measure and assure continuing assent to the status quo by the governed.
As such closing a few locations is absolutely trivial for Starbucks if it serves some larger purpose.
Furthermore, Starbucks shouldn't be forced to sell its proprietary assets. like ovens, espresso machines, technology, etc.
(Unionize all the stores in an area, and if Starbucks shuts them all down, just open a new coffee shop)
Most employees appreciate that they are getting paid whether or not the location performs well. They don't get an equal share of the profit, but they also don't pay an equal share to cover losses if the business is not profitable for a season. If a Starbucks locations were closed for a month during peak Covid, would the employees be happy to (a) not get paid, but also happy to (b) still help carry the cost of the lease, utilities and other operating expenses?
If I start a business and my employees are willing to put their name on the loan (backed by their homes as collateral), then this is a different discussion.
They are more common that one may think. They have quite a foothold in e.g. European agriculture and even finance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation.
Now go ask the bank for a credit line to do this and you will understand why the privatisation of money creation impedes worker-owned co-ops (or any ownership structure other than the standard capitalist one).
It is possible it is hard to find a co-op because it's harder to collect on a delinquent loan. Or perhaps data shows that they fail more frequently.
You argue elsewhere that changing jobs is easier than Starbucks closing all of their stores. The point is that this is one store, not all of them, and Starbucks can absolutely afford to close one or a few. They are betting that labor will back down before store closures start to hurt their business.
The companies, on the other hand, have to know the risk of strike is real, or else they can easily ignore the union entirely. To avoid a strike, the company needs to give the unionized workers just enough to make it not worthwhile to strike, but not nothing.
However, all of this is beside the point, because companies close stores in order to avoid the union even forming. Once the vote doesn't go their way, boom. They don't even wait to hear the proposals, they shut down to send a clear signal that they don't want the workers to have any power whatsoever, at that location or any other.
The Wagner Act itself is terrible and forces businesses to negotiate collectively even if they don't want to. And it cuts both ways.
If the company produces documentation showing other reasons for having let the workers go, the company wins. If they can't, the workers win. In this case, the workers were very clearly singled out because of their organization activity, and the company had no complaints at all about their performance before the organization activity started, so the ruling went in favor of the workers.
Instead of firing workers, if the company had closed the store and the USSC hadn't ruled poorly, it would work exactly the same way. If the company produces documentation showing that the store was losing money more than other stores that remain open, the company wins. If they can't, the workers win, and presumably in that case the company could choose to either re-open the store (since leases tend to be long-term) or move the employees to other stores. More likely is that after a few of these cases, companies would be less quick to close stores to stop collective activity.
In any case, it wouldn't be complicated or a new thing at all, and wouldn't be easy to fool by starting unionization action at an already-closing store.
It's just like now: if an employee is bad, then you document it and fire them. If you're firing them to avoid unionization, then don't fire them. There's no need to wait, just don't fire employees in retaliation for union activity.
The case (United Textile Workers v. Darlington Manufacturing Co) said that it was okay for the business to close their entire business, but it also said they'd violate labor law by shutting down part of their operations to chill union activity. It seems like that's exactly what's happening in these cases- it's not like Chipotle or Starbucks is completely going out of business.
* https://www.bloomberglaw.com/public/desktop/document/UnitedT...
But the situation seems materially different for a large company like Starbucks, where each physical location is only a small part of their overall business operations.
What SCOTUS ruling was that? I wonder if it applies to e.g. shutting down a warehouse or dismantling a department within the business, as opposed to shutting down a business entirely.
Each location is differently situated. One might have higher real estate costs or taxes or more competitors or fewer customers or antagonistic local politicians etc. There are so many things that go into store closures that they could always find a plausible pretext. Then what do you do, have a rule that you can never close a store with a union?
Then why did Starbucks, no doubt availing themselves of very well-paid labor lawyers, lose this case to the NLRB? For these examples at least they were not able to provide plausible pretexts.
There are licensed stores, which is what you'll see in a Barnes and Noble, hospital, or on a college campus. These do make up a significant ~40% of total locations.
FWIW, Barnes and Noble operates its own brand, Barnes and Noble Cafe, that isn't a licensed Starbucks.
Licensed stores have full branding and, these days, accept stars as discounts and purchases there accrue stars. The third category (corporate and licensed being the first two) is "We Proudly Serve", meaning the business isn't a Starbucks but has an agreement to sell some or all of the 'bux product line.
At the minimum there should be a $Duration long waiting period.
Where do you draw the line between "retaliation" and "refusing a bad deal"? If spotify wants to hike its monthly price by $10 and I cancel, is that "retaliating" or just me not liking the new deal?
If operating in a country that protects unions is a bad deal, they should move their operations somewhere else. What's that? They still want the money the consumers in those countries bring in? Well then, the deal doesn't seem so bad after all then.
Edit: To elaborate, companies seem to want it both ways. They want a large consumer base with a lot of disposable income that will buy their stuff, but they also want to treat their own employees like shit and pay them the minimum they can get away with. This can't work forever. If you push to shrink/eliminate the middle class, eventually there will be no one left to buy your overpriced "beverages" and you'll go out of business.
Unfortunately modern business practice is to limit your thinking to the next quarter.
This is non-sequitur that fails to address my original question.
This is what everyone in society does, with the exception of tipping culture.
When your pipes break and you get a plumber who quotes you for $400, do you think, we’ll I’m gonna pay him $500.
People make deals about exchanging labor for cash and those deals should be honored. It’s as simple as that.
An individual contract might not be financially viable for a given Starbucks location, but nobody is arguing that they will be forced to sign such a contract.
This feels trivial to work around. All they have to do is let the union form, refuse to meet their demands, and if they strike they close the store. That way it wouldn't be "closing a store because it has a union", but the end result is the same.
To quote another commenter:
> Employees can’t 1/35,000th quit the way Starbucks can close 1/35,000th of its locations.
People seem to forget labour rights have been won by blood, not some benevolence of companies in a capitalistic society.
I think the problem here is that property owners both want government protection but they specifically hate it when it doesn’t help them.
If we don’t want the government interjecting itself into “contracts” then let’s have that. Courts and cops should not be enforcing contracts. People should not be going to prison for breaking contracts.
It’s unfair to have it both ways. The government is currently protecting employers against employees - and not really the other way around.
So maybe let’s balance government influence in contracts?
It’s perfectly fine for the government to force a company to keep a store open because they unionized. In the grand scheme of things these companies still have a huge advantage.
Addressed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34999564
>I think the problem here is that property owners both want government protection but they specifically hate it when it doesn’t help them.
I'm not sure why property owners are being singled out here when the statement is applicable to basically everyone. Who doesn't love free government services but hate taxes?
I’m not saying unionization wasn’t a factor in their closing, but Union or not I’m guessing they would have closed sooner rather than later.
People open coffee shops all the time. It isn't that hard.
(Though it is hard to make money running a coffee shop. Source: I know people that do)
It is prime real estate for a coffee shop. Blue Bottle and George Howell already have locations just up the street. But in theory it could be a great opportunity for one of the other established chains in the area, or a new company able to capitalize on the foot traffic generated by the fact that it used to be a very very busy Starbucks.
Then it's an ideal spot for the union to open their union shop. I don't really understand why you think it would sit vacant.
That does cost them money, but if we assume they're fucking with the union then it's very much in their interest to not break the lease and instead leave the location empty -- because they probably do just want to reopen the same location once the union has dissipated. (Also, breaking a commercial lease often doesn't save you very much money, so...)
> it's very much in their interest to not break the lease and instead leave the location empty
There's an easy way to test that theory. Have the union make them an offer.
Besides, there's no particular reason the union has to set up shop in that store. They can pick anyplace else. As I mentioned before, people open coffee shops all the time. It isn't rocket science.
Stop being obtuse.
> Stop being obtuse.
LOL