Comment about the victims being male. Response about how men can change their behavior for women.
It seems you are implying that the comment is victim blaming, or if I take your statement less charitably it is flame bait implying that the comment above would cause outrage if the genders were swapped.
All the points were valid, but when people talk about the invisibility of male victims...this is it.
When I have seen them go very badly, it is almost always because the man comes at the conversation as there is somehow some equivalence or at least relative importance. And there absolutely is not anything close to equivalence.
Sexual violence is so prevalent among women that I know several women who have been assaulted multiple times. I once was having a deep conversation with two female friends and one of them started to tell a story that was obviously hard to tell, and when she paused, the other friend said without emotion, “so, what’s this going to be, rape or no rape?” (It was rape)
So yes, sure “me too witch hunts” are a real bummer, but telling that to a woman who has a not-insignificant percent chance of having been assaulted for real seems tone deaf, to put it mildly.
> I'm just recalling how many times women in my life said that to me in response to me daring to bring up any male-centered concerns. Things like Me Too witch hunts of men later proven to be innocent.
This is also in a larger thread correctly identifying that this is a situation that women have had to deal with for years - with no one saying it is acceptable.
"We didn't start the fire! Da nah nah nah nah nah"
São Paulo was a pretty dark place back in the days I hope it has gotten better because it was also one of the most friendly places I've visited. Those tips for women seemed prudent for me back then.
I am more worried about the problem with digital money. It's a lot easier to rob/assault someone if you do not have to drag them to an ATM.
I'm not convinced that the commenter was intentionally trivializing the attacks on these men, but it's likely that the way it was phrased would have that effect.
I agree, but it's 100% called victim blaming when you apply it to women. "We shouldn't have to do anything differently", "teach men not to rape" etc etc.
I don't think anyone here disagrees, they're pointing out the double standard.
Yes, but only by some people. Many, maybe most, women would consider "don't walk down dark alleys at night alone" to be common sense. I suspect the subset of people who call that "victim blaming" only seem like a majority because that view happens to be popular with media personalities and Twitter loudmouths.
I'd also point out that it matters when the advice is given. There's a difference between "don't walk down any dark alleys alone tonight" and "this wouldn't have happened if you hadn't walked down that dark alley alone".
In any case, getting offended by good advice just because some other people get offended by good advice doesn't make sense.
If the purpose behind it is to give helpful, relevant, useful advice for avoiding a bad situation, it's not victim blaming.
If the purpose behind it is to downplay and deflect and ignore the other causes of the bad situation, it is.
If someone isn't wearing a seatbelt, and dies in an auto accident, it's not victim blaming to remind people to wear seatbelts. It is victim blaming to use that reminder to divert attention away from the fact that the auto accident was caused by another drunk driver.
Rather, my purpose was to use the opportunity to give men perspective about women. And it's something they can use to their benefit: not to avoid being robbed, but to have more successful dates.
It's especially easy to misread, misspeak, or misrepresent either one on the internet.
Again, it's solid advice. But you'll get torn apart if you publicly give "be safe first, be right second" advice to women.
What “women” typically object to is when the first response from someone after reporting an assault/harassment/attempted assault is to be immediately questioned, “what were you wearing?” “Did you lead him on?” “What time of night was it?” “You were drunk, weren’t you.”
That’s what pisses us off. The immediate move to blame the victim as if they asked for it (and in some parts of the world, rape is still framed that way. She asked for it.) and thus deserve this to happen.
I can assure you that every woman I have ever met over the age of 21 (I don’t know any girls who are in high school now, sorry) has been told her whole life to be careful and take precautions when meeting someone, especially someone from off the internet.
“Text us when you get there.” “Be sure to watch your drink.” “Meet in public first, just to be safe.” “If If you don’t text me by “X,” I’m going to blow up your phone.” “Be sure to take an Uber if you’re going home after X o’clock.” These are things we say to EACH OTHER. These are things our mother’s taught us.
We don’t get mad when reminded to be safe. We get mad when the instinct is to blame us for our own assaults. (And it isn’t just men that blame women. Women can blame women too. And women can blame themselves, even when they did absolutely nothing wrong.)
I'm not saying being robbed is anywhere near as bad as getting sexually harassed or raped but I never thought the line of questioning was really unreasonable. Even if I've heard the advice being told it again by someone I know can be helpful because even if I'm told it constantly I still need to be reminded not to be a dumbass and go out at night dressing like I'm well off or whatever because someone will rob me and I have a bad memory with that kind of stuff.
Granted most people in general including women are probably less a dumbass about these things than I am.
Then it is probably a good idea to listen instead of putting up a defensive front so that you can understand why these situations are different and why women in general feel the way they do.
You still shouldn't be blamed for being robbed. You're right that depending on the area and the time of night, crime can be more likely (although plenty of crime can take place in broad daylight) and being aware of that in advance makes sense. But that still doesn't make the crime your fault and you still weren't asking for it. And assigning blame or calling you a dumbass for getting robbed still isn't OK.
But being robbed, even at gunpoint, is different than being sexually assaulted or raped. And most rapes don't happen in bad areas late at night by random strangers. Most rapes are people the victim knows. That's what makes questions about "what you were wearing" and "did you lead him on" even more offensive.
That's... weird wording.
I would put "robbed at gunpoint" as worse than most kinds of sexual harassment.
Your wife can imply you are to blame because as far as you two are concerned the robbers are force of nature. It's good for preserving personal sanity, but not when this logic is applied in public or by authorities and can influence public opinion or policy. Are they force of nature? Or perhaps something we can or even should deal with? If you want robbers to go away, normalizing them is the worst thing you could do.
Given how women are often treated by men, I totally understand why they would chafe at being given this sort of advice from a man. I would, too, if I were in their shoes.
Apparently there are a lot of men who haven't received this advice from anyone, though, even though it always applied to them as well.
I think it is ad-hominem fallacy to say that an argument's provenance changes it in any significant way whether it comes from a man or a woman.
I assume that you mean something more like "how good the advice is". And you're right. But that's not the point.
The point is that most women are constantly being told how they should or should not be by men, usually in a way that is treating them as if they were children. So when they are unnecessarily instructed by men about how to be safer in world where it's mostly men that makes it dangerous for them, I totally understand why that might be irritating.
No matter what the message is, who gives it is often the primary thing that determines how it will be received.
Advice isn't an argument.
Because it's patronizing to think they don't know that.
Is it that women's problems are invisible to you until men start having some of them?
That doesn't seem to be as big a problem yet, but we should nip it in the bud before it spreads beyond São Paulo. Every parent should teach their daughters that robbing men is wrong. Just as every parent should be teaching their sons that raping women is wrong.
There is no excuse. Whether he's wearing a Rolex, or she's wearing a miniskirt, that's their choice to make. It is not an invitation, and you are not entitled to anything.
Rape is a crime, and robbery is a crime. We should prosecute both, and make sure our children get the message that it is unacceptable.
I appreciate your reminder that the criminal, not the victim, is to blame. It's unfortunate that people do have to protect themselves, but I hadn't intended my advice to suggest that that's the only change we should make. We already have laws and must enforce them.
You wouldn't think that "No means no" is a lesson we'd have to teach, but not only do we have to, but a lot of people will push back on it.
So I'm being a bit facetious in my reply, but I'm using the opportunity of the OP's self-pity to reiterate: this is a thing that women go through all the time.
I don't know which alternate universe you might be observing, but in this universe that is simply not true.
The Grievance Industry and Woke Studies courses really try hard to make it seem that men are these evil brutes, but the vast, vast majority are conscientious people.
Yes the vast majority are
But theres a minority that is not, and is that minority the one that drives these bad altercations and therefore bad outcomes like these are the ones that lead the risk assessment for women. And this will keep happening irregardless of how conscientious the majority is. Because this issue is not about the majority, but the minority
Because that minority group can be groomed from childhood to not behave in such a way via strong social norms, and therefore reduced in size to an even smaller minority. Likely will never disappear entirely, but achievable goals are better than idealistic perceptions never applied
That crowd is quite widespread
There is no conversation, however, on the physical violence regularly suffered by men. Or the tells/behaviours that we adopt to avoid such things happening when we can. Men are the victims of the most crime, but because of a small subset of us we are also the perpetrators of most crime. Everyone focuses on the latter, ignoring the former.
I can tell you that I'm not bothered by this at all.