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Comment by beachgeek | Hacker News Reader

This is exactly right!

Its excessive regulations and crazy labor laws that stop people from building factories in much of the US. I am mostly leftist on much of my view and I'm sure people here will downvote me, but unions have screwed workers.

People in the US can continue saying these are sucky jobs etc, but every Chinese person I've met who's worked at these factories has claimed they've enjoyed the experience. Although the ones I met said they did it while putting themselves through school etc.

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They "like" the factory because it's Better than starving and working on a farm. They make more money in a factory than on the farm. China is the place to manufacture but NOT the place to live. Everyone wants to do business with china but no body in their right mind wants to actually live there.

That's right. Assuming you're American, its exactly what your grandparents or great grandparents might have done in the late 1800s or early 1900s when they got off the farm.

When the Chinese people have had enough of their working conditions, they'll change things themselves.

Deleted comment

Good for your great-grandparents. I've had white co-workers who took me to the textile mills where their grandparents worked in the Boston area, in abysmal conditions by today's standards. They've been long shut down and turned into office buildings.

There are no property rights in China as we understand them. Farmers grow stuff on "their" land, but get to keep their produce. They're actually pretty productive.

Why was rdouble's original post deleted? At least he was honest even if he was being racist.

Did you miss the news about Chinese workers threatening mass suicide?

The suicide rate for Foxconn workers is actually less than China at large which is telling about how life is over there for most people.

OK, what do you propose as the solution then?

If you read the article none of the executives quoted directly mention how cheap Chinese labor is. They talk about how quickly they can "scale up or down." There are only 2 countries where you can scale up your semi-skilled work force rapidly, and the other country hasn't started ramping up for manufacturing just yet.

Regarding your comment about suicide, China for various reasons has a rather high suicide rate. Its not clear to me if the suicide rate amongst FoxConn workers is just a symptom of their society or something really bad about FoxConn itself.

> OK, what do you propose as the solution then?

Keep pressure on them to improve. Not just Foxconn, which is getting singled out (and will, most likely, end up being one of the better ones due to scrutiny after this blows over), but on all of the factories until they reform.

Specifically, they appear to pay no attention at all to worker safety. You'd think that after things like that horrible carcinogenic Sanlu milk, they would be more interested in things like chemical safety, but I guess they're not quite there yet.

While America is by no means perfect, they should copy us and have people monitoring workplace injuries, require worker education on safety, require appropriate protective gear for anyone doing dangerous things, and hold companies responsible for the health & safety of their workforce. It's not impossible to improve. I don't expect them to be perfect, but there are plenty of things they could be doing which, according to the reports, they are not.

When the Chinese people have had enough, they'll demand change. Who are we to force change down their throats?

In 2003 our President invaded a country that had nothing to do with the war on terror. We didn't listen to anyone including our closest allies. Why would China or anyone else give a shit about what we have to say now?

> When the Chinese people have had enough, they'll demand change.

You mean like the group that threatened suicide? Or the outrage over that Sanlu milk powder?

> In 2003 our President invaded a country that had nothing to do with the war on terror.

I don't know why you're comparing bad PR to starting a war. You appear to have a very different idea of "pressure" than I do.

>> When the Chinese people have had enough, they'll demand change.

> You mean like the group that threatened suicide? Or the outrage over that Sanlu milk powder?

Like I said, when it gets too much, they'll demand and get change. Its not our problem.

>> In 2003 our President invaded a country that had nothing to do with the war on terror.

> I don't know why you're comparing bad PR to starting a war. You appear to have a very different idea of "pressure" than I do.

My point is we don't have a lot of moral authority anymore. Everyone remembers that we started a war under false pretenses. And that we killed 100s of thousands of Iraqis in the process of bringing them "democracy". Our own jihad for democracy.

It isn't just bad PR. You said we should "pressure" China to force their factories to provide better working conditions. Why should they?

Or were you implying that we should invade China as well? Is that your idea of "pressure"?

The "pressure" I'm talking about is the existing bad PR. That is, what's happening right now. And it is getting results, because Apple itself is auditing its suppliers.

I most certainly do not advocate starting any wars. I'm not even talking about government pressure. Frankly, the economic pressure from Apple, which doesn't want to take crap for factory conditions in China, may do more good than anything the US government is likely to try.

And I'll add that Apple is one of the best companies to put pressure on. They have a super-strong strong brand and their products often fetch higher prices and profit margins than their competitors. This gives them a strong incentive to protect their brand, and the means to do so.

Part of the reason their products can demand a premium price and healthy profit margins is because they have high standards for quality, profit margins and quality both rely on a strong and well managed supply chain. This well managed supply chain gives Apple greater ability than most to extract compliance with their required labor standards. The demand for quality means, in part, that Apple's suppliers make a greater investment in training their workers, which makes retaining those workers more important.

If Apple's suppliers attract and retain workers with better pay and better working conditions, then that creates pressure on other manufacturers, who must improve the package they offer workers in order to keep them from going to work for Apple's suppliers.

I'm sure there are other good targets for this sort of pressure, but Apple has to be among the best.

OK. Economic pressure is something I can agree with. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

The rest of the world (and those of us who deal with it) begs you not to start any more wars.

> The rest of the world (and those of us who deal with it) begs you not to start any more wars.

I didn't really have any planned, you know. I mean, I don't even have a lair in a volcano on a skull-shaped island yet! You can't seriously expect me to go around and start wars without one. It simply isn't done.

But seriously, I think that bad PR for image-conscious companies with factories that have substandard working conditions is a good way to leverage economic pressure. Because their brands have value to them, they'll try to restore them by putting pressure on their suppliers to clean up their acts and hopefully that will lead to reforms by driving competition. None of which involves wars or even government intervention, though it might take a bit of investigative journalism.

Hahaha. Very funny man. LOLCATZ, Cheezburger Catz!

You know I meant "United States" when I said "please don't start another war".

We have a big difference in the way we think. I think if someone CHOOSES to work in a factory under semi-inhumane conditions so their children can have better lives, they are fucking heroes.

You think they are victims. Your Western brothers (including the clown who got his post deleted) think they are somehow less than them.

Whatever. Lets check back in 20 years,

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