Comment by PragmaticPulp | Hacker News Reader

Comment by PragmaticPulp | Hacker News Reader

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Listing multiple possible openings for a limited headcount is common, but not necessarily nefarious. A company may be open to a junior, mid, or senior developer but have different expectations, compensation, and requirements for each of those titles. Posting different job listings allows you to cast a wider net without having to dilute the job descriptions too much.

> do you invest 10+ hours in a process where a job may not exist in the first place

The company isn’t going to spend the time walking someone through the hiring process if they don’t have any intention of hiring someone.

10 hours of interviewing is barely more than a single workday. It wasn’t long ago that interview processes required several rounds of phone screenings, interviews, and maybe testing before you were expected to come on-site for an entire day of in-person interviews - or more! I don’t think it’s unreasonable for a company to expect candidates to invest some time into going through an interview process. The phenomenon of hiring people into high paying jobs after a couple hours of casual interviews was largely an artifact of the recent tech bubble. It’s also part of the reason we’re seeing mass layoffs, IMO, as a lot of these companies hired so fast that they couldn’t reasonable screen everyone. It turned it “hire now, fire later if it doesn’t work out” when cash was plentiful.

This is such a hack response.

>not necessarily nefarious

It might not be nefarious, but if companies are putting out "feelers", and I'm investing ~30 hours per company, and half the companies I'm applying to are like this, then there's a huge waste of time (mine and theirs). I've started calling out this bullshit: "is there a job here, or is this a position to gauge the market?"

>10 hours of interviewing is barely more than a single workday.

It's never 10 hours. It's 5+ interviews, plus a take-home test (that can take ~10-20 hours), plus scheduling, prep, etc. It's never 10 hours. Stop validating shitty behaviour.

>I don’t think it’s unreasonable for a company to expect candidates to invest some time into going through an interview process.

I wouldn't mind, if there was a job on the other end. I can't even list the number of times I've gone through the whole interview process (at big companies!) and have been ghosted at the very end. I wish they'd stop wasting my time.

>The phenomenon of hiring people into high paying jobs after a couple hours of casual interviews was largely an artifact of the recent tech bubble.

That's how it's been most of history. 10-30 hours of interviews for a single job is a relatively new phenomenon.

>It’s also part of the reason we’re seeing mass layoffs

This is so false. We're in layoffs because we overhired, not because the interview process is too easy.

> I'm investing ~30 hours per company

I just want to say that this is a much higher number than necessary. If you've got skills there's just no reason to ever accept more than 90-120 minutes total before the on-site. That's plenty to receive multiple top-of-market offers (or not top-of-market) even in the current market. Any company pushing trying to make an interview take this long on your side is not worth working at.

Playing devil's advocate if you don't want to do the take home test then they just filtered you out and actually is serving their desires on who they want to hire.

A reasonably-scoped take-home project is fine in isolation.

The problem is the sheer number of steps required, of which the project is just one step. For example for a recent position I looked at:

1. Initial interview with some HR person: 1 hour

2. Interview with a tech person and review some code sample (spot security issues, bugs etc): 1.5 hours

3. Take home project (supposed to take 2 hours, but you'll want to make it look good so you'll probably spend twice that): 4 hours

4. Another in-depth interview with a couple other tech people: 2 hours

5. Another interview with the CTO: 30 mins

6. References & background check.

That's not atypical. Round after round of interviews. It becomes an endurance test, where only the most dedicated will stay the distance. While the 8-10 hours might not seem much stretched out over several days, you want to add some prep, keep your calendar clear so it does eat up your spare time, especially if you are already working.

And that's just one job. What if you are interviewing at multiple companies?

Note the take-home is at the start of the process, not the end: so you can end up putting a lot of effort in before you have even cleared four or five other hurdles. Oh, and I don't even have an offer yet. It could well be the offer on the table isn't worth my time.

Now you could say "well, we only want dedicated people". Fine, but I'm dedicated in so far as I get paid to be working for you. I don't get paid to run your interview gauntlet. Maybe you want people willing to do free overtime?

And this is way more than it used to be maybe 10 years ago, and it's for small to medium sized companies, not FAANG or other big corps. Nor is it a feature of recent layoffs and resulting increase in the talent pool: this has been the case for a few years now.

I think there's a few factors at work:

- Endurance test

- Risk aversion culture in management

- Copypasta whatever Google or Apple do

Just how many companies are you putting that far down your funnel‽ I mean, that's a bunch of time, yes, but you should start filtering out companies at step 1. If you're trying to collect a dozen offers before jumping ship then yeah, sure, but that's quite a lot of offers! The other question is how many of those result in an offer? Because I can see the frustration of there being no payoff at the end if you're not getting an offer most times after step 6.

FWIW, last time I interviewed at Google, there was no take home test, so I don't know where people are copying that from but I don't think it's Google.

I'm not disagreeing with you. But, I think the optimal way to actually assess someones abilities would be to pay them one day's wages for the role that they would be going for and to clear one task with a interviewer instead of this maddening complexity of an interview. Honestly I have been thinking of getting a tutor to help me pass these tests.

> A reasonably-scoped take-home project is fine in isolation.

This very much depends on what type of IP agreement you have with your current employer.

Take home projects are not work from the company’s backlog. They’re tests and all candidates receive the same test.

It doesn’t make sense for a company to open up their code base and infrastructure to random candidates and ask them to work on it. That’s an IP and leak nightmare.

OTOH, if you are taking a paid contract job to work with a company on real work as a trial, you could definitely be violating contractual agreements with an employer. This type of interviewing is extremely rare, though. Few full time job holders would consider it, so it would be largely limited to unemployed people who have the time to do it.

Yeah this. There's often a presumption like "I'm a very talented software engineer and everyone should want to hire me and thus companies shouldn't design a hiring process that I personally find annoying."

Hiring is a matching process. If a company with an annoying hiring process is a bad match for you, that's fine.

As long as the whole process is transparent and fully disclosed upfront.

Remember, the company has more information than the applicant.

In what sense does the company have more information? They have more information about the details of the job, sure, but the applicant has more details about themselves. Which is “more valuable” depends on the market I guess. But why do you say one party has strictly more information?

(This question is asked in good faith).

> This is such a hack response.

Please be civil.

Posting multiple job listings targeting different salary ranges isn’t a “hack response”. It’s literally how you hire properly without a crystal ball to predict exactly who will apply.

Again, no company is going to drag candidates through interviews for jobs that don’t exist. I don’t understand why anything thinks that’s the case. Interviewing is work for the interviewers, too.

> no company is going to drag candidates through interviews for jobs that don’t exist

This happens all the time. The team will have an internal candidate they want, but HR dept is worried about optics of fairness, so the team is forced to put on a show by interviewing people who have no chance of being hired.

I have heard this but as I’ve only worked at startups I’ve never seen it play out in real life. How common is it that it happens “all the time”? Only at bigcorps?

It's an HR thing, so if not large enough to have HR bureaucracy probably not common.

Most of the companies laying off people are huge businesses that apply the most onerous of interview hurdle jumping practices.

They didn't cut down on the process, or the five stage interview processes during the last two years of over hiring, they doubled down on them.

There are very few careers where entire industries like leetcode, hackerrank, coderpad etc have been founded to promote the practice of making every Dev slog through a mass of made up crap intent on wasting the time of everyone involved to make HR feel like they've achieved something.

The company isn’t going to spend the time walking someone through the hiring process if they don’t have any intention of hiring someone.

Oh, the logical fallacy of appealing to logic.

I have personally seen companies post, interview, with no intention of hiring. No guff!

Case 1:

* "Just in case" they get a contract to provide thing X, they "want to be ready" to go.

Case 2:

* Forced to look at internal staff first, knowing full well they would not hire external, but going through the motions for appearance sake

Beyond the above two, I have heard:

* A government department interviewing, offering, and then the union hears of it, and challenges the new hire

* A company interviewing a dozen people, ready to hire, and a stakeholder suddenly thinking "let's contract this out instead"

* A company doing 3rd round, time consuming (for them and the candidates) interviews, after an offer, while waiting for the response. And I mean, scheduling and doing, not "already scheduled and doing".

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