Historically the concern was that railroads might get into say coal mining by charging competitors more to move coal than they charged themselves.
What in the hell is "market rate" for compute? Google bought a zillion CPUs and hard drives and put them in data centers that they pay for. There's no "market rate", they own the infrastructure. They can do whatever they want with the equipment they own. A division using another division's spare compute capacity isn't in any way an anti-trust violation. What you're saying makes no sense at all.
“Amazon EC2 Spot Instances let you take advantage of unused EC2 capacity in the AWS cloud. Spot Instances are available at up to a 90% discount compared to On-Demand prices.” https://aws.amazon.com/ec2/spot/
As a monopoly Google could sell the same capacity YouTube is using on Google cloud services and YouTube could then buy that capacity. If YouTube was treated as any other customer it’s fine, if YouTube got preferential treatment it’s not fine.
I doubt anyone is going to take them to court over this but it is likely illegal.
The problem comes from Alphabet having cheap compute left over from their search monopoly. In 1982 AT&T was broken up because it was using its local monopoly when competing in the long distance market. Again for 99% of companies it would have been fine, but monopoly = special rules.
Microsoft for example could have spent unlimited money on IE and the justice department wouldn’t have cared as long as it was treated as a business investment. However, leveraging the ability to change windows was seen as problematic.
Long term subsidies can also run into issues, but it’s believed YouTube is inherently profitable.
But that still isn't logical. Are you really going to say that a company shouldn't be allowed to use resources to create a new product? Should it have been illegal for Netflix to use profits from shipping DVDs to later bundle video streaming?
Should it also be illegal for companies to "subsidize" open source contributors? Should it be illegal for YC and other VCs to "subsidize" money losing startups based on previous successes?
How long should a company be allowed to spend money on money losing products to gain a foothold? Microsoft probably lost money on the first 2 generations of the Xbox. Should that be illegal? Should Microsoft not be allowed to throw billions at ChatGPT?
And the critical thing you don’t seem to understand is resources aren’t the same thing as money. Suppose Intel decided to change their CPU design so only their compiler would have access to the full instruction set, that’s not something money can buy. Anyone can bring lots of money to the table, only the monopoly can leverage the resources associated with that monopoly.
As to spending money, again it’s not about gaining a foothold because anyone can spend money. The issue is if someone is subsidizing a business to maintain their monopoly rather than operate a profitable business. Google didn’t get into fiber because they wanted to operate a profitable business they got into fiber to defend their websites. They didn’t cross the line, but you can see how long term subsidies of different business could be seen as desirable/problematic.
And just in case you haven't noticed, Intel isn't exactly doing great against AMD these days and doesn't even have a monopoly on chips with the x86 instruction set.
Do you think its also illegal for the cable companies that originally lost money on cable infrastructure and to subsidize the cable infrastructure to sell subscription content? DirecTV probably wouldn't have made money selling satellite internet. But it was able to do it cheaply because of its content delivery. Every company leverages its resources to have margins of scale.
Even HN can only exist as a free service because it leverages the resources it has from the rest of its business. No one pays dang to moderate HN. The moderation is subsidized.
People get away with breaking the law constantly, you can do 57 mph in a 55 every day for 60 years and never get a ticket. Shipping Windows with a copy of IE was like doing 57, nominally illegal but not something they would have gotten in much trouble over. But like a speeder they pushed even further and got slapped down over it.
Intel has had an X86 monopoly at various points. Doing something when they aren’t a monopoly can be legal when doing the exact same thing as a monopoly is illegal. Whether they currently qualify as a monopoly is debatable, but you don’t need a 100% market share to be considered a monopoly. AMD having a 20% market share is right at the edge of where Intel would be considered a monopoly but Intel has a great deal of market power.
> Microsoft for example could have spent unlimited money on IE and the justice department wouldn’t have cared as long as it was treated as a business investment. However, leveraging the ability to change windows was seen as problematic.
There is no confusion. Nothing came out of the DOJ case with respect to MS bundling IE.
Intel has never had a monopoly when it came to x86. IBM insisted from day one that were two suppliers for x86 before it even agreed to use the first chip.
Making it more difficult to install competitors is “leveraging the ability to change windows.”
They very much lost in large part because of a video shown in court of how difficult to install a competitor. They even lied about it by editing their own video which skipped steps showing they knew that behavior was problematic.
As to Intel’s x86 monopoly. Intel paid 1.6 billion in response to a monopoly lawsuit, and the EU fined them $1.45 billion and ordered it to end its customer rebate program. So they where definitely treated like a monopoly.
They have even swapped peoples browsers with security updates before. Though more recent examples like KB 3135173 seem like a simple mistake, it’s more provocative when such things were common.
“Microsoft later submitted a second inaccurate videotape into evidence. The issue was how easy or difficult it was for America Online users to download and install Netscape Navigator onto a Windows PC. Microsoft's videotape showed the process as being quick and easy, resulting in the Netscape icon appearing on the user's desktop. The government produced its own videotape of the same process, revealing that Microsoft's videotape had conveniently removed a long and complex part of the procedure and that the Netscape icon was not placed on the desktop, requiring a user to search for it. Brad Chase, a Microsoft vice president, verified the government's tape and conceded that Microsoft's own tape was falsified.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor....
Also I had forgotten about this bit: “Later, Allchin re-ran the demonstration and provided a new videotape, but in so doing Microsoft dropped the claim that Windows is slowed down when IE is removed.”
https://corporatefinanceinstitute.com/resources/management/m...
FWIW, the reason you might be a bit confused--though I do not think this excuses the time you're spending here--is that Microsoft did not end up broken into two because they appealed that part of the ruling and "won"... but that court of appeals actually re-affirmed that Microsoft's actions were illegal!
https://www.computerworld.com/article/2582620/appeals-court-...
> The appeals court, in its decision, specifically rejected Jackson's order that Microsoft be split. "We vacate the judgment on remedies, because the trial judge engaged in impermissible ex parte contacts by holding secret interviews with members of the media and made numerous offensive comments about Microsoft officials in public statements outside of the courtroom, giving rise to an appearance of partiality," the decision said in part.
This is essentially akin to someone being convicted of something and then appealing the decision to an appeals court that decides "OK, the defendant clearly is guilty, but the chain of evidence used by the district attorney was compromised and so none of it is admissible; thereby, you cannot send them to jail, even though we know they are guilty".
(edit: Also, there were, in fact, serious ramifications on Microsoft for this loss... Bill Gates largely had to step down as CEO due to having gotten the courts so mad at Microsoft that it was almost broken apart, the IE team had a difficult time hiring anyone due to the shame and Internet Explorer ended up on life support <- this is often blamed in Microsoft "not caring as they were a monopoly" but that is far from the truth, and the resulting chaos for Microsoft really allowed Apple an entrance with Steve Jobs back at the helm to retake a large market segment. I did a talk about The Fall of the Roman Empire that covered some of these issues, but more detail on IE is likely a nonsequitur.) https://vimeo.com/310654342
Job first came back to prominence with the iMac, then really took off because of the iPod. Microsoft didn’t fail in the music player market for lack of trying, they had multiple failures - first Plays4Sure and then the Zune. It was execution failure. The same with the phone.
Microsoft was never able to compete with an integrated player like Apple except for the Mac.
Aka the use of private Windows API’s by IE was explicitly banned in the decent decree.
The initial case which MS lost would have resulted in splitting the company, on appeal and by the time of the new trial (which they also lost) the government changed its mind into no longer seeking to break up the company. But that was on the government not a legal victory by Microsoft.
> However, the DOJ did not require Microsoft to change any of its code nor did it prevent Microsoft from tying other software with Windows in the future
“H. Starting at the earlier of the release of Service Pack 1 for Windows XP or 12 months after the submission of this Final Judgment to the Court, Microsoft shall:
1. Allow end users (via a mechanism readily accessible from the desktop or Start menu such as an Add/Remove icon) and OEMs (via standard preinstallation kits) to enable or remove access to each Microsoft Middleware Product or Non-Microsoft Middleware Product by (a) displaying or removing icons, shortcuts, or menu entries on the desktop or Start menu, or anywhere else in a Windows Operating System Product where”
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2001/11/28/01-2949...
the only way to achieve the above is to change windows code.
The API issue wasn’t one of code it was one of documentation:
“The proposed settlement required Microsoft to share its application programming interfaces with third-party companies and appoint a panel of three people who would have full access to Microsoft's systems, records, and source code for five years in order to ensure compliance.[28]” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor....
It publishing API’s may seem like a strange remedy but it was a common tactic they used to limit competition. Netscape for example couldn’t release Netscape for Windows 95 at release because while the IE tea, had access to API’s they weren’t providing them publicly until release.
In the sense that there was ultimately a comparative slap on the wrist remedy, in part because of a favorable-to-Microsoft change in administration between the findings of fact on antitrust violation (in which bundling IE was a factor, but far from the sole factor) and the imposition of a remedy for those violations, yes, nothing much came out of it.
Also, U.S. vs Microsoft wasn’t limited to Netscape vs IE several other companies were involved. The first Prohibited Conduct was in terms of OEMs:
“ A. Microsoft shall not retaliate against an OEM by altering Microsoft's commercial relations with that OEM, or by withholding newly introduced forms of non-monetary Consideration (including but not limited to new versions of existing forms of non-monetary Consideration) from that OEM, because it is known to Microsoft that the OEM is or is contemplating:” …
“B. Microsoft's provision of Windows Operating System Products to Covered OEMs shall be pursuant to uniform license agreements with uniform terms and conditions. Without limiting the foregoing, Microsoft shall charge each Covered OEM the applicable royalty for Windows Operating System Products as set forth on a schedule, to be established by Microsoft and published on a web site accessible to the Plaintiffs and all Covered OEMs, that provides for uniform royalties for Windows Operating System Products, except that:”
Etc
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2001/11/28/01-2949...
> Microsoft for example could have spent unlimited money on IE and the justice department wouldn’t have cared as long as it was treated as a business investment. However, leveraging the ability to change windows was seen as problematic.
And how is it related to anything Google is doing?