Hacker News Reader

Comment by iamandrus | Hacker News Reader

Apple has draconian restrictions on stuff like iOS for the user's sake (and for Apple's partially), and with the huge amount of users they obviously got that right. I'm not entirely sure what Apple's stance on SOPA is (I heard they supported it, but then I heard they didn't), but I don't think it would matter to them. They don't need to sue for piracy because they have the iTunes Store, which only distributes content. Apple even removed the DRM from their iTunes Store media a few years ago. They don't limit your freedom in the way that SOPA or PIPA will. You're comparing two completely different industries.

View on HN

Apple has draconian restrictions on stuff like iOS for the user's sake

If its for my sake, why must they treat me like a child and not let me choose to have them remove that restriction on my device?

No one is making you use iOS.

I don't. I'd like to, but thats the reason I don't.

If something done for my own good drives me to another product, what does that say about if it is actually for my own good? Thats my problem with the GP's post.

I could say that the MPAA's restrictions are also for the viewer's sake, and with the huge amount of viewers they obviously got that right. I don't believe it, but I don't see where it's wrong but the equivalent for Apple is right.

Personally, I think Apple's policies are more destructive. They're doing a pretty decent job of convincing an entire generation that locked-down, manufacturer-controlled computing is good.

Not that I'm boycotting them....

They're doing a pretty decent job of convincing an entire generation that locked-down, manufacturer-controlled computing is good.

I've spent 20 years playing tech support to friends and family who have accidentally fubar'd their open computing devices. IME that has done far more to convince folks that locked-down, manufacturer-controlled computing is good moreso than anything Apple's done.

The conflict is framed as "open" vs "closed" but once someone can do "open done right for non-techies" that's where the industry will go.

Totally agree.

I used to think that yes, Apple makes neat things, but it's still evil because it locks us down. But consider, for example, how trivial it is to install OS X on a PC. There certainly are many ways Apple could go to prevent that, but they don't and will even give away updates for such installations.

This makes me think that Apple has consciously made its top priority delivering the smooth experience and working device/software. For that, Apple chose to sacrifice breadth for the sake of depth—focusing on fewer use cases, but better working them through. This means fewer features and poorer extensibility. We tend to perceive that as restrictions, but it limits the non-technical users' ability to shoot themselves in the foot, and allows for better quality.

True to a point, although I think this is a but of a false dichotomy. I'm not 100% sure having to do slightly less tech support is really worth the cost of giving one company complete control of our computing experiences anyway.

For years the most common cause of people's computer issues was a combination of the terrible security or MS operating systems circa Windows 95 - XP and overly complex programs with badly designed UIs.

I'm sure it is possible to create a platform where one can install whatever software you like but not run a huge risk of malware. For example you can run applications in a sandbox which will stop them from damaging the system. Applications would then only be able to break out by exploiting the OS itself, so you build it on top of something like OpenBSD.

So you can avoid security problems without complete control, but you also mentioned the UI, and it is just one part of the overall experience.

E.g., today most people don't really differentiate parts of their experience defined by the OS from those defined by application makers. So you have to control the ways your users install software, if you want users to not hate your product because of some crappy app.

To be honest, I doubt that without such complete control there would exist a computer / tablet I could recommend to, say, my non-technical mother, and be more or less sure that she won't hate all computer-related things afterwards.

I never said that Apple was right. There are a lot of things I disagree with in regard to Apple (I hated the first iPhone, I really did). I said that you're comparing two completely different models and range of products.

You're also assuming that everyone who uses a computer knows how to modify it and not break it. Understand that a lot of Apple users want a device that just works. They don't want to have to mess around with the operating system or type a lot of intimidating commands into a terminal just to change something. They want to go on Facebook, play some games, listen to music, or type term papers. DRM does nothing but prevent things from "just working." It locks down where you can watch DVDs, how you can watch them, how you can use things, and can even lock you out of something if there's a problem on the developer's end (example: Assassin's Creed 2 included a DRM that needed an internet connection whenever you played the game, so if Ubisoft's servers went down or you don't have access to Internet, you can't play the game). To say that DRM is for the user's benefit and totally not for the developer's is insane.

Comparing the MPAA's restrictions with Apple is a bit unfair, and their success is only due to almost a complete monopoly in that area. The MPAA executives look at their audience with dollar signs in their eyes. Apple looks at them with those same dollar signs, but also with care and pride for the products they push out. They want to get a good product out. They adopted new business models like iTunes, iCloud, and even Siri. The MPAA is the antithesis of innovation and doesn't care about the products it pushes out, it just wants money.

Sorry for the long rant, but I needed to do it.

Do you perhaps see the Apple glass as half full, and the MPAA glass as half empty? As the GP argued, one could just as easily argue that every MPAA policy is for your own good. Further I think it's incredibly unfair to say that the MPAA member companies -- and the many artists and professionals behind it -- don't care about their product. I'm hardly an MPAA booster (when a blu-ray has unskippable ads I hate them just a little more), but I have yet to see an argument that excuses Apple policies that isn't just as applicable to the MPAA, which is exactly why I asked the original question regarding Marco. I found his entry odd given his history.

Of course you can argue that, but you'd be wrong. Ask anyone on the street what they think of Apple locking down their products and not allowing you to modify them, and you'd get mostly positive responses about Apple. Now ask them about DRM (in an understandable way, of course), like how they might buy a song on one music store and not be able to listen to it on their iPod. You'd get negative responses, guaranteed. I don't mean to say that artists don't care about the product they created. Artists deserve a lot for the stuff they make. But the MPAA just uses these artists to make money. Has their ever been an MPAA album, or has the MPAA itself (not the artists) released a single? The executives just care about money, not the music or the culture behind the music. If they actually cared about the audience, they wouldn't use DRM and lawsuits to make people pay for their product.

Replace "consumer" with "musician" or "filmmaker", and every argument in support of Apple's locked down systems also applies to the RIAA and MPAA. To hear them speak, these policies are the only think keeping the ravening barbarian hordes of Internet users from destroying the all of the art and culture in our society.

The MPAA views Internet users in the same way that Apple views people attempting to unlock or jailbreak their device. They have nothing but contempt for those of us who dare to use the products that we've purchased in a way that they have not envisioned. In their world, they tell us what we are and are not allowed to do, and we meekly submit. Both MPAA and Apple have this mentality and I find it rather hateful.

Apple's restrictions do nothing but prevent things from "just working". It locks down where you can obtain apps, what you can do with them, and can even lock you out of something if there's a problem on Apple's end (example: iOS 4 was widely considered to be unusable on the iPhone 3G, yet it was impossible to downgrade unless you had the foresight to use circumvention tools in advance of iOS 4's release).

One could argue that DRM is required for there to be a thriving market in media, and therefore is to the user's benefit. Now, you don't believe that, I don't believe that, and maybe even the MPAA doesn't believe that, but the argument isn't invalid on its face. It's clear that restrictions which only limit users can be considered to be good for them. Apple's restrictions only limit users, yet you and many others argue that they're good for users.

I don't really care about Apple's intentions, care, or pride. I see Apple as pushing the entire world to a much worse model of computing. The MPAA, on the other hand, is fading into obsolescence one way or another.

I agree, and I'd kind of like to boycott Apple at this point. But the problem is that I need to get my work done, and Apple has a monopoly.

On what?

On decent UI design and hardware/software that "just works."

Linux UIs are getting slightly better with Gnome 3 and Unity, but they still suck. (And they're getting better by copying Apple.) Windows UIs have been getting worse since XP. (All the good features in Windows 7 are copied from Apple, like their Expose equivalent.) Neither OS offers anything like the plug-and-go and design cleanliness that Apple offers.

It really makes a difference in terms of productivity. I know how to futz around with my machine to make it work, but I have better things to do with my time.

Until either a competitor or the open source community can offer good design -- which matters -- I am stuck with Apple.

BTW, I'll give you all a hint on good design: minimal is a synonym for good. Exterminate features.

When I'm working on Linux, I wish I'd work on OS X. When I'm on OS X, I wish I'd work on Linux.

OS X just works and all that, but it is a constrained environment that lacks the Debian repository. MacPorts is painful as hell, it broke my installed packages twice and the last thing you ever want to do is to upgrade all installed packages (because, you know, you might fear security risks). It also installs its own replacements for whatever OS X ships with, being its own little bubble, which drives me insane.

And what's the fix for MacPorts? That's right, Homebrew, which is a bunch of scripts that compiles your packages (again) from source and you end up praying to God that the software you want is available, that it takes care of all dependencies and that it compiles until the end, as you've got no idea what to do otherwise. Like it's freaking 1996.

So you know, now I'm happy working on Ubuntu full-time, which inherits the most awesome software repository ever from Debian. It may not be the shiniest and most polished operating system ever, but it treats me well as a developer, it doesn't restrict me in any way and I never had any problem that's unworkable.

     BTW, I'll give you all a hint on good design: 
     minimal is a synonym for good. Exterminate features.

In general people saying that don't know what they are talking about. Any simple interface that actually does what you want is actually a beast under the hood. If it isn't then the software is mostly useless.

What most people are missing: the interface/software should do what you want, not the other way around.

This is my biggest problem with Ubuntu lately. I would have rather preferred for them to not fuck around with Gnome's interface, pulling out a proven and working interface, replacing it with broken software in the name of simplicity. I want it to work, not marvel at how simple, shiny and useless it is.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com