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Comment by NicoJuicy | Hacker News Reader

> signed a partnership deal with Hong Kong Aerospace Technology to build a facility to launch satellites and rockets in the northern Obock region.

Yeah, sure. In 5 years we will know if it worked out and how the debts can't be repaid.

I'm wondering what will be asked in return... => One road one belt debt trap, all over again.

Luckily, Africa can repay China with natural resources or ports... In case of Djibouti ( where this will be build), it's the main ship access to the Indian ocean.

And the deal seems to be 25% of their GDP in 2018. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Djibouti

What a coincidence.

Edit: but let's hope for the best. Since it's more than 1 country participating in it. I have my doubts though, let's hope I'm wrong.

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Getting something in return for trading something is not a 'trap'. Here's what actual Africans think about China:

https://www.quora.com/Do-Africans-dislike-Chinese/answer/Jea...

https://www.quora.com/Is-China-colonizing-Africa/answer/Anth...

'A trap' is what the Anglosaxon financial establishment did to my country: Forced us to privatize our national assets to starve our government of GDP so that the government will fall deeper in debt. Which is why that's called a 'trap' because you cant get out of it. So much that the government was totally deprived of revenue in merely a decade after having been forced to privatize all national assets through 'free market'. Then this was used to force the government to destroy labor protections and business regulations to 'boost the market', turning the economy and the society to scorched earth. But foreign investment did excellent in this environment, especially corporations located in the US and its satellites.

There is no such thing in any deals with China. It does not intervene in any country or its governance when making deals. You trade. You sign a deal to trade them X amount of minerals. They sign to give you whatever you want. That's it. No other conditions attached. They don't even make any commentary about your economy, leave aside your ideology, your system or how you should be doing things. That's why all the countries prefer China and BRICS instead of the US and its satellites now.

What's appalling is that how the very financial establishment that has been made famous as the 'economic hitmen' smears other countries of what it has always been doing and people like you repeat it without putting any critical thought into the process. No wonder you people are still paying for Iraq War Debt.

>You sign a deal to trade them X amount of minerals.

The sharp end here is what happens if you don't come up with the minerals.

They stop giving you whatever you traded the minerals for. How is that even an argument. In what world you stop providing your end of a trade bargain and the other side keeps giving you what they were trading for. Sounds crazy.

What if they paid in advance?

What if none of those nonsensical hypotheticals did not happen.

I was referring of course to the hypothetical of the United States making deals to purchase minerals, paying in advance, then subjecting the countries in question to humiliating financial consequences when they can't deliver.

There are many cases of the US literally walking back on its word or unilaterally canceling deals because it could. It even cancelled its sovereign debt that it had to other countries a few times in history. The countries used to take it because they had to. Which precisely why the global south now prefers China, Russia, Brazil, India and the entire new bloc around BRICS, SCO etc:

They don't have to tolerate anything with China or Russia. When a deal is broken by a country, these two countries just stop doing business with that other country until some agreement is reached. Its simple business/trade. So much that China avoids even saying things that could be interpreted as commentaries on other countries' policies, the way to do things or their culture. Ending up in very dry press releases.

> things that could be interpreted as commentaries on other countries' policies, the way to do things or their culture

Rofl.

That's pretty much the only thing China is actually doing.

It's just constantly attacking the west instead of others in trying to spread hate.

Just look up any translations of Chinese media ( eg. Weibo ) or any Chinese government official.

> That's pretty much the only thing China is actually doing.

Its not. Dont make up nonsense. The US is the only exception. Two years ago the Chinese state finally learned that keeping civilized discourse and refraining from calling out bullsht does not prevent the US from lying about them. Hence the US is the only country for which they are actually calling out its doublespeak.

I still think that they are acting way too civilized and reserved to be able to cope up with never-ending US sht slinging and lying.

Sure it is. US isn't lying about China either. Where and what are you even talking about?

I already gave multiple examples about China and it's 'failed infrastructure' and you didn't refute 1. Just praising it without examples.

Here are some more:

- Their sea and neighboors: https://www.cfr.org/chinas-maritime-disputes/#!/chinas-marit...

- Violations with Taiwan airspace: https://www.ft.com/content/023764a2-6af2-4fbb-b75d-dd607c907... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-61642217

- Australia former PM accussed the West to be to friendly with China against Beijing ‘bullying’ - https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/feb/16/forme... ( another Chinese neighboor)

- China taking global fish supplies with their army of fisherman - https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/09/26/world/asia/ch...

- Chinese "little blue men", like "little green men" during its 2014 annexation of Crimea.[2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Armed_Forces_Mariti...

> The armed fishing fleet are part of China's power projection,[1] and are deployed to seize territory and to target anyone who challenges China's claims to the entire South China Sea. In 2016, 230 fishing boats swarmed the same islands

Here some more of their multiple "small" provocations since 1950 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_salami_slicing_strateg... ( notice the same "grey zone tactic as Russia did in Crimea - Ukraine)

And last but not least. If you think it's a coincidence that Russia waited to invade Ukraine (and wait for melting snow/ice) just after the Beijing 2022 Winter Olympics, you're naive :)

Beijing 2022 Winter Olympics ended on 20/02/2022.

Russia invaded Ukraine on 24/02/2022.

F*k China and F*k Russia. China is just using Russia as a proxy state, friends with "no limits"...

Fyi, I'm from Europe. We should get China out of Europe asap, similar to how we're not allowed to do business there.

>They don't have to tolerate anything with China or Russia.

Of course, China and Russia are such bit players that contracts can be broken with them at will.

Both are true, both are traps. Eventually all the countries in extreme debt to China will be forced to vassalize. BRICs is dead, sorry. Two of these are nearly at war with each other every few months.

We should be able to consider that one thing being bad does not negate another thing from being bad. It is true that the US has been the big bad for a while now, but two can play at that game, it seems

BRICS future under China is similar to North Korea.

Totally dependent on China...

> There is no such thing in any deals with China

Tell that to Lithuania ( delisted as a country by China), Taiwan ( a "province"), Tibet ( invaded), Hong Kong ( taken over), ...

Concerning debt trap. Are you aware that Africa is paying off debt for mostly Chinese workers/companies/contractors for those failed infrastructure projects? Bringing in almost no employment to Africans.

https://thediplomat.com/2022/03/how-chinas-ambitious-belt-an...

The thing you're forgetting is that China doesn't care about the countries and their inability to pay them back. They are interested in how they are getting paid back.

Eg. Ports in Sri Lanka, Zambia, Nigeria, ... https://www.africanliberty.org/2018/09/10/like-zambia-sri-la...

Bridge of 3,1 b$ for the Maldives - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-52743072

Angola - https://theprint.in/world/angolan-model-viewed-as-early-exam...

I'm willing to wait to see how this all plays out and who is right here.

Are you?

> Angola still owes China more than USD 23 billion, mostly from oil-backed loans. With declining production, this means that most of Angola’s output is going to China, preventing Africa’s second-largest oil producer from selling its major source of income on the open market.

PS. It isn't solely Africa, but also Australia and European countries ( mostly in the east ) already decided that it's better to not be in debt with China ( and they have gotten not pleasant suprises)

https://www.dw.com/en/cracks-appear-in-chinas-new-silk-road/...

PS. Ukraine also had a deal with China, they were even under a nuclear umbrella of China ( lol) during the "one road one belt" project. We can all see how that "protection" turned out.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/under-new-scrutiny-chinas-nucle...

-----------------

On top of this, your "links" only name 1 infrastructure project: "the Mombasa railway"...

Dare to do a sanity check?

https://www.voanews.com/a/kenya-wants-to-renegotiate-loans-f...

> "It becomes impossible to be able to pay that loan by revenue that comes from the railways. And even in 50 years, it will not break even if you load the loans to the railways," Murkomen said.

Let's dig a bit deeper in the country.

https://www.wionews.com/world/kenya-discloses-loan-documents...

> any major dispute over the railway would be decided in Beijing

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/china-may-seize-kenyan-asset...

China is willing to give those countries loans to repay those Chinese loans. But they do have higher interests and shorter repay terms...

Good luck.

> Tell that to Lithuania ( delisted as a country by China), Taiwan ( a "province"), Tibet ( invaded), Hong Kong ( taken over)

Any country is free to trade with whomever they want. Nothing happens to Lithuania for being 'delisted'.

Tibet has been historically part of China like Hong Kong. And the invasion of Tibet deposed an actual serfdom regime. How is Hong Kong, a CHINESE city being taken over by China after the LEASE that the English forced them out of that city, is an argument.

NONE of these are any arguments for trade deals. If you go about making such arguments, the other side that you apparently support would come up far worse. So avoid going there.

...

Voice of America is a CIA trumpet and showing it as an argument for anything is an insult to dozens of countries where it has been used as a tool for coups and regime change. Not surprisingly every country in the global south is thinking totally the opposite after so many coups that were organized and trumpeted in their country by the CIA via filth like Voice of America.

You people's defense of the indefensible makes the case of China far stronger. Linking VoA as a source to someone whose country suffered multiple US backed coups. That does the trick, yeah. You totally persuaded me.

Hong Kong - National Security Law ( https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/nov/24/uk-net-migra... )

Delisted = immediate ban of any trade with China, since the country can't be found in software ( = trade ban)

Either way, it's not my intent to pursuade you.

I'll let you figure it out on your own.

Which country?

Yeah, everybody on the planet 'figured it out' on their own after 40 years of US neoliberal plunder, thank you very much.

Sure.

Perhaps you should dig more into Russia, if you want to see countries actually destroyed.

PS. Again, which country? :)

> Perhaps you should dig more into Russia, if you want to see countries actually destroyed.

You are grasping at straws at this point. China is not Russia. And Russia is definitely not the US. If one wants to look at countries actually getting destroyed, there isnt anywhere to look other than the US. So save that nonsense.

...

This is the point at which you should let the argument go, instead of trying to push forward failed logic by grasping at straws.

But, you wont do that of course, because the obligation to cope that is so prevalent among Anglosaxon nationalists requires you to keep denying reality and smearing everyone else in order to feel good about your 'own side'.

So I will let you go instead.

Denying reality :p

You didn't have any example and even your 2 Quora links only contain 1 mention, which is also a failed infrastructure project and put the country in debt.

Lol

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