Comment by tristor | Hacker News Reader

Comment by tristor | Hacker News Reader

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I recently moved back to Colorado, where for many decades it's commonplace for people to drive everywhere with their high beams always on, a point of significant frustration. With modern headlights and the new proliferation of lifted trucks (I was hoping I'd leave that behind in Texas, unfortunately not) with improper leveling, it has become nearly impossible to drive at night. I have several thoughts as to how to handle this, but the biggest issue is all of them are meaningless if it doesn't force retrofit or repair of all the vehicles currently on the road.

What we need is real safety inspections in this country that actually look at safety critical items, rather than either phoning it in or obsessively trying to gum up people who modify their cars safely (looking at you California). The types of shit I see these days on American roadways is appalling, and significantly different than how things were 20ish years ago. I now see cars regularly that are on unsafe tires, either for the conditions or the tires themselves being bald or aged out, I see cars driving on 4 spares, I see cars with hanging partially detached body pieces, I see cars with improperly aimed or installed head lights, I see cars with massively incorrect alignment, I see cars with /obvious/ failed wheel bearings or ball joints just waiting for their wheel to fly off.

All of this is a massively worse situation than it was just 20 years ago. I don't know if it is primarily economic, or if it's that people these days don't know fuck all about how cars work or even have any clue as to what types of things they should be aware of on their own vehicle for basic maintenance, or a combination of things. I just know the situation is massively massively worse, and it's terribly unsafe. The American roadway has become a death wish, and it wasn't this way in the past.

I suspect a lot of it is economic. Cars are really really expensive -- the second priciest thing most people buy (after housing). Upkeep easily hits thousands of dollars per year for a vehicle above the 100,000 mile mark, especially if the car is stored outside exposed to the elements or has been in an accident. Insurance and gas makes this even worse of course.

With prices for everything rising, I suspect vehicle costs are the easiest for most households to cut (in the short term). Much easier than food, or housing, or heat, or the marginal cost of media subscriptions.

In the long term? I know a LOT of young people with cars that are basically falling apart. Bald tires, poor alignment, cracked windshields, broken climate control, overheating engines, faulty wipers, dangerous rusting, significant panel damage, 10s of thousands of miles between oil changes, and more. All to make up the cost of expensive housing, which of course is still too far away from work to get there in anything but a car. Many have stopped maintaining their cars entirely.

As someone who thinks the US is overdependent on cars: maybe this is a good thing long-term? I see a lot of people waking up to just how expensive car infrastructure is for everyone involved. In the short term, it's probably a serious issue for road safety and America's ability to travel anywhere -- even work.

That's the thing, I see new cars getting more and more expensive, but the cost of maintenance for existing cars hasn't really gone up significantly. It just seems like folks stopped doing it, or in some of the cases where I've actually interacted with folks, didn't even know it needed to be done. I feel like the average American does not know /anything/ about cars, how they work, or how they need to be cared for, and either simply take it to a dealership (most expensive option) or assume it'll be fine forever and do nothing.

I religiously maintain my vehicles, and I do it myself, and that is not something that comes out of privilege, it comes out of a rural blue-collar upbringing where people did this /for economic reasons/ because we could not afford to take a car to a mechanic or dealership. The price of 6 quarts of oil has not materially changed in the last 5 years, even though everything else has increased in price significantly. The cost of tires hasn't significantly changed in the last 5 years. Tires /are/ expensive, especially good tires, but it's always been so and any set of tires should last 4-5 years under normal driving conditions (tires age out after 5 years, regardless of tread depth). If anything, tires have gotten massively better, so while their price is still high and not going down, you get much more value for money today than 10 or 20 years ago.

When I see 90s era Japanese cars still on the road, /these are the easiest and cheapest to maintain/, which means that the folks who own them should be able to keep up with maintenance no problem. Even newer (but still old) Japanese cars are cheap and easy to mantain. I have a 2012 Honda Fit as a daily that's a bit beat up from various fender benders my wife has been in, but mechanically is in fantastic condition. Every single part or fluid I've ever needed has been available very inexpensively from any parts shop, because 2012 Hondas are exceptionally common and have a high number of shared parts between models. There's very little excuse in my book for folks letting their cars literally rot into the ground as they drive the wheels off (sometimes literally, as the marks on the highway can attest).

Is the claim that /other/ costs have risen enough people are sacrificing vehicle maintenance? I think that /might/ be a fair argument, but I feel like ignorance is a much bigger issue. We have effectively no standards for issuing drivers licenses in this country, and most people are terrible drivers (just watch them, seriously) that put little attention or thought into their behavior on the roadway, and even less into the maintenance of their cars. Based on informal surveys, I find most people have never even read the owners manual that comes with their car, much less done basic maintenance themselves.

To be clear, I agree cars are expensive, and in many ways are the primary asset for most people because many Americans don't own their home, they rent. That car is what gets them to work, so it's essential for their economic survival. This means it's something worth investing in, ensuring it's maintained well, so it lasts a long time and performs well. But I feel like most people simply don't know anything at all about cars, and really have no interest in learning. It's very disappointing.

I agree with pretty much everything you wrote here, but I would add one small caveat:

Cars are complicated. DIY requires time to learn, basic skills that not everyone has, and a number of tools that even I don't own, like blocks to lift your front end when you change your oil and the correct wrenches to swap out various components. If you've been raised in an environment that familiarizes you with those things, or teaches you those things, or even gives you access to some of those tools, you have a big leg up. The whole space is complicated and fucking up some small component could cost you thousands of dollars and weeks getting something repaired. It's scary!

I've gotten into bicycle maintenance, an order of magnitude simpler, in the last couple of years. I'm confident about most of the small stuff, and I've built a bit of a foundation of knowledge. But with so many confusing standards and tools an opinions, even that can be confusing. Cars up the ante even more.

I guess I'm just saying we should remember our privilege in this space. A lot of people don't have the time, money, or foundational knowledge to do this stuff. I really hope adult learning can expand in the USA eventually to make it easier to fill these gaps, because as you say, if you're forced to go to the dealer you're likely getting screwed on price.

I don't think framing growing up poor and rural as a privilege because out of necessity I was forced to learn mechanical knowledge is a reasonable direction. But let's set that aside for the moment.

Now, more than ever, it is accessible to learn these things. YouTube, in particular, is an amazing resource. There are numerous channels posting car repair tutorials to the point you can pretty much search <year> <make> <model> <thing> and get a step-by-step video walkthrough narrated by either a professional mechanic or a seasoned amateur on how to do that repair. I do the exact same thing myself, even though I'm well acquainted with working on cars, just to ensure I am not missing anything and to help plan what I need to bring with me in advance.

From a tools perspective, that I will grant, (good) tools are expensive. That said, for better or worse, Harbor Freight exists, and a set of basic hand tools will set someone back less than $100 and last most of their life (if not longer) and is sufficient for 70% or more of common car repairs.

For the price of two corner-shop oil changes, you can get everything needed to do it yourself the first time and then cut the ongoing cost of oil changes by 50% for the remainder of your life. That same initial investment then cuts the cost 30-60% for every other vehicle repair that doesn't require powertrain disassembly (which is now a pretty rare requirement under 300k miles). It's a huge economic incentive to learn, especially when the knowledge is available on the platform of your choice effectively for free. No more digging through a Chilton or Haynes manual and paying the retired neighbor in beer to show you how to do something.

When you combine this with the fact many budget vehicles now include 100k mile or more warranties that are transferable, there's very little excuse for folks not investing the effort to learn. I feel this way about a lot of things, and perhaps not coincidentally, I am much better off economically when problems come my way. There is so much anxiety and fear in our society, that people seem comfortable with a sort of intellectual laziness and general malaise where they stay inside and doom scroll when they're not at work and outsource all other forms of knowledge and labor to others, or just neglect it altogether if it's unaffordable, instead of learning to do it themselves. I'm doing very well for myself these days financially, but it's compounded by the fact I don't pay people a high cost to do simple things for me I can do myself, like cook at home, change my oil and other basic car maintenance, or do small home repairs, all of which you can get free instructional materials online on how to do.

I'm a DIY person. Alot of stuff is easy, but you know what wasn't easy? Finding a place to work on my car when I lived in an apartment. Alot of HOA's have rules as well, and landlords who rent houses. I think this is the biggest problem. It's also common that manufacturers make simple jobs harder, the engineers don't consider it. My Traverse needs lights changed through the wheel well, and it's a tight fit. The power steering fluid is hidden under a plastic shroud. I also had the misfortune of trying to change spark plugs on a Ford Expedition. It was basically impossible since they had never been changed and they have a design failure that makes them break. I had to keep that car in a carport while I worked on it for afew months. I bought several tools to try and get the sparkplugs out, but eventually had to scrap it, all because of a badly designed spark plugs.

Agreed on this. Those Ford Triton 5.4L V8s are legendary for the spark plug issues. To be fair, I think about things mostly in terms of Japanese cars, I think American brand cars are less reliable, harder to work on, and generally worse in pretty much every way.

>> I recently moved back to Colorado, where for many decades it's commonplace for people to drive everywhere with their high beams always on

Don't they teach in the driving school that you should turn off the high beams when you see a car?

I remember I was taught to turn off the high beams when the car (doesn't matter if you are behind the card or it's coming from opposite direction) is approximately 300m away, or when our lights start to cross each other.

Also, forgetting to turn the beams on and off at night is a good indicator that you are slowly falling asleep behind the wheel.

> Don't they teach in the driving school that you should turn off the high beams when you see a car?

They do. They also teach you to not speed, to keep a safe distance, to signal lane changes, to stop at a red light, not to run a STOP sign, to yield at a YIELD sign, and generally speaking, to avoid dangerous things.

Sometimes people forget, sometimes people don't pay attention. and sometimes, people just don't care.

> Don't they teach in the driving school that you should turn off the high beams when you see a car?

Most Americans don't go to driving school. There are generally deeply lax requirements to be licensed to drive in the US. In Colorado, people are concerned with animal strikes on highways, so run high beams at night to see farther ahead rather than slowing down. It's dumb, but it is what happens.

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